Quote:
WA News

Farmers battle ban on handguns
30th December 2007, 9:00 WST

Pastoralists are battling moves to stop them carrying handguns, claiming that they are an essential “tool of the trade” to shoot feral animals or injured livestock.

A review of the State’s firearms legislation by WA Police has proposed changes which will allow only people in security-related occupations to own handguns.

Pastoralists say they have carried handguns for decades and need light weapons they can carry easily on horseback or motorcycle during mustering to protect themselves against wild camels or rogue bulls. They also are needed to put down sick and injured stock.

Police released a discussion paper in October after consulting dealers, club and recreational shooters.

WAFarmers has urged its members to make submissions after they got an
extension until next month.

Pilbara pastoralist Lang Coppin, of Yarrie Station, 250km east of Port Hedland, said many pastoralists owned a handgun, which often was more practical to carry and use than a rifle. “Just about every property would have one registered pistol,” he said. “They are convenient to carry when you’re mustering and you can draw and shoot instantly if something is charging at you.” His workers, horses and livestock also were at risk from being charged by feral animals.

Firearms inquiry unit officer-in-charge Sen. Sgt Ronald Timmins said the suggested amendment was designed to clear up regulations confusion. A person could get a handgun licence if required in the course of their occupation.
But since 1996, people had to show a “genuine need” for restricted firearms and destroying stock or vermin was not considered such.

“It was always intended that the occupation was intended purely for security guards in pursuit of their occupation and their escorting of cash and valuables,” he said.“If a farmer can say he uses it for his job, what’s stopping a bank teller, professional fisherman, pharmacist or a service station proprietor working into the early hours of the morning from saying they need one.”

JODIE THOMSON. (unquote)

Is this the sort of situation that polilicians, John Howard in particular, wanted to come about?

Is Mise
A good thread. Thank You. Well I guess we could argue that the shop keeper or the bank teller wanted a pistol to do harm to another person while a farmer wanted it for as you say humane reasons.

If a beast breaks his leg two hundred miles from no where you need to put him out of his misery.

However they do now require to be licenced because we dont want these weapons in the hands of the wrong people.

You will get plenty of people claiming that farmers should not be any different to anybody else.

Well they are and despite all these cute cuddly laws if ou have a snake about to bite you or your horse or camp buddy a hand gun can save your life.
Its not like you near the local hospital when you are out mustering.
Mind you we have few real farmers around anymore.

Most of these idiot feed lot people drive around in 4 wheel drives.

Do you guys understand what a handgun is?

Put simply, one that you can hold in your hand. We are not talking rifles here.

Handguns already need special licenses in NSW, differing to the licenses for rifles.

Seems WA is just finally catching up.

Farmers are still able to own guns to put down stock and kill snakes or whatever else.

PF,
Do you know what scrub bulls and bull camels are?
Ever seen them in action?

Of course I know what a handgun is, and that there is a special licence different to a rifle licence etc etc.

All that I wonder is why the police in WA want to stop graziers from having a suitable pistol to use in an emergency when their life is threatened by wild animals.

Maybe the police will ride out to protect them?

Is Mise, you make a good point. Station cattle are of course
extremely wild and the city cops would have no idea about
their behaviour. Once a couple of people are killed by them,
as they never had time to rush back for the rifle, then
Worksafe will have to step in.

I think that the P&G need to find somebody who puts their
case clearly to the police, to explain to them how things
go on a station, hundreds of km from any copshop. Its
pretty rough and rugged country out there on some of these
stations.

What a load of garbage!

Having worked in northern australia for a fair few years on Cattle stations with wild cattle I can say [with a modicum of authority] that we NEVER used hand guns when mustering these ornery critters!!

I have never heard of anyone having to use a hand gun to get out of trouble.

Experienced stockmen can dispatch humanely, a sick or wounded animal with the back of an axe .

Mind You , the main aim was to get the wildest animal to the yards so we could sell him or her .

To kill a saleable animal was virtually unthinkable !

I am not saying I would not have shot a few if I had a hand gun as I had had a few close calls and that is probably the problem with hand guns in today's society .

Too many farmers and their sons are knocking themselves OFF .

Let's face it hand guns represent for Australians a dangerous weapon in society and we can do without it anywhere.

Ps , For [history] the average Headstockman in Northern Australia with a few young Aboriginal; and and an even less number of white stockmen, taking a chance with wild cattle getting them to the yard , was part of the fun and it was all par for the course !

*a sick or wounded animal with the back of an axe .*

Ah Jim, I am sure that all the animal libbers on OLO will
just love you now :)

Thats after them telling us about us *civilised* Aussies, versus
those *barbaric* Arabs.

Rather then a blow in and out like yourself, I'd rather trust
the judgment of the P&G, people who grew up on stations and
have run them all their lives.

Kartiyj Jim

Forget the libbers hes got to get past us first.

We wernt talking about a sick or injured beast Jim. We we talking about a animal charging remember.?

You must be getting pretty long in the tooth because they mostly use bikes or four wheel drives now and run the crap out of them then knock them with the bull bar.

You still have your stock men for some areas but they usually only rely on those riders for the areas not able to be got at by the four wheel drives and bikes.

Its sort of an art they have refined over the years.

Yup to knock a bullock or beast with the bull bar of the four wheel drive is consiered real clever and of course heaps of fun too.

By some.

What they do need guns for is to put down something suffering and they come in mighty handy if you come across a deadly snake while walking to the loo.

People dont walk around carrying their rifles every step of the way.

As for your cracking a beast over the back of the head to put it down if its sick- Umm



We need to make sure the guys are carrying the right gear to do a proper job.

You dont kill a large beast with one crack of the back with the back of any tool.

Also you still havent explained what you do if the beast is 'not' sick and charging you. I see see you now tarzan rushing in with your tool.

Then again some people are just after all tools

"What they do need guns for is to put down something suffering and they come in mighty handy if you come across a deadly snake while walking to the loo."

That snake would want to be curled up asleep or you would want to be a mighty good shot!

A shotgun, which is still available to farmers, is the only way to get snakes.

BTW, snakes are a protected species :)

Raging bulls and camels are no excuse for allowing handguns to be easily accessible to the wrong kind of people. If they are such a problem then one would assume you would go prepared in these situations? Just wanting to behave like a cowboy is no excuse for carrying such a weapon.

PF
If they are an old established farmer then I say leave them alone.

Some of the old drovers have paddled their own boat all their life.

I mean I suppose yeh they should have a licence but still.

You say snakes are protected. Yes well that might well be so but they mustering contractors I have met dont tend to get about with the latest stupid animal libbers bible or the latest laws of the Parliment.

I am talkng about the real outback people here not this modern corp lot who wouldnt know the difference between a pigs@ and a cows bum.

It might be all the go now with Bindi declairing snakes are her favouite pet but some of us have other ideas.

So many people in the city now are having trouble with snakes as they move into those areas.

I am on the Gold Coast after selling my farm and there is a family not far from me where I lease land from the main roads to keep my Dads old horses.

This family are moving in two weeks time because they have young children and the place is over run with dangerous snakes.

My own horse last year was killed by one on that property.

They had four pet chooks for their kids and three of them were killed by snakes.

I have the last one here. Last new years eve as they were about to leave the baby sitter started screaming and there was a six foot brown right in front of the door.

Another huge thing is in the roof.

One morning there was a brown on their daughters bed.

There tried every Government and council department to try to get some assistance.

My point is that real cowboys do kill snakes and their life is more important than a snakes.

However I am NOT suggesting we hand out handguns to city people because they might shoot their foot or neighbour.

Funny you should mention snakes. I am slashing today. I try hard NOT to miss!

Yabby,

Believe it or not ,to have a heap of people carry handguns around for years on the off chance yours or their bad management may put someone in danger isn't sensible at all .

One can almost guarantee more people than wild cows or bulls would be shot, either by accident or on purpose .

Who would carry the gun ? The boss ,if he happens to be about ,or the station worker ? Or everyone working with cattle ?

Maybe WA has degenerated back into the wild west .

I have never seen a rodeo clown pack a handgun .

Perhaps they should all be issued with barrels!

kartiya jim

Since you are an old ringer who worked in the outback could you please outline some of the most common practises a normal crew would follow and especially the leader.?
You know just basic stuff =ie dress behavouir etc.
Thanks.

"One can almost guarantee more people than wild cows or bulls would be shot, either by accident or on purpose "

That being the case, Jim, why hasn't it happened already?

They're not asking to be allowed to get handguns but to keep the ones that they already have ON LICENCE..

IS Mise No doubt all those unregistered, unlicensed handgun will remain with their current owners anyway. It will be just like when they changed the gun laws here, only those that were on record were handed in.

Pale Interesting comment about the snakes. Dont they have just as much right to life as sheep, brumbies etc?

I live in brown snake country and it was very hard to deal with at first but once you get a better understanding of them, they are far more afraid of us than we are of them. Yes, if there is one hanging around the house i will kill it, but if I come across one elsewhere, live and let live I say.

PF

NO In my book...

They kill stock in the most painful dreadful death and a horse, cow, goat, kangaroos; birds to me must be protected as much as possible.

People are getting bitten all the time up here and in the city areas too.

The stupid idea of protecting them has them breeding so many we are putting and adults kids in danger. Also snakes are changing.

They are becoming far more aggressive.

Once a snake wouldn’t attack unless trod on.

They killed four horses in the last eighteen months up on my sister and brother in laws farm.

For years Garth used to catch them and drive them down the mountain.
i kept telling him they would come back.

These darn things fight for every inch of the territory.

They killed my own horse and best friend Bing here last year.

I am not talking about bush PF. I am talking about ten hects right in the middle of the Gold Coast.

They are in back yards! People are moving out because their places are riddled with snakes and nobody will help them.

These are not bush people but city people. They even go into the swimming pools. It’s quite common up here.

In QLD people are getting bitten and they are coming into houses where they never used to before.

Some kids have them as pets too because Bindy likes them. Then of course the rotten things escape and breed.

No No PF. Snakes are not entitled to live as much as we are and our stock and pets and kids are.

My Dad was a old bullock team driver and back in those days they pretty much respected their stock a lot more.

Dad slept with a big red belly once all night because his Dad which would be my grand father wouldn’t lend him a match to see.

They were tough old days and they only had two matches left for the rest of the stay in camp where they were snigging logs.

BTW I feel the same about Crocs too. Another stupid decision .

Sounds like these pastoralists have had their pistols as part of
their licences for years, without problems. Some guy in Perth
in the police dept, is just scratching himself, wondering what
could be changed. He needs to get out and spend a couple of
weeks on a station and he might rethink things.

Off topic but there we have it. Gertrude dislikes snakes
and crocs. She seems to prefer those species with dopey eyes, that
stir up the maternal hormones and give her a warm fuzzy feeling inside,
which snakes and crocs clearly don't do for her, as they tend
to eat other species.

Hey, without predators, millions of herbivores would die slow
deaths from starvation. They have a role to play in nature,
ignore them at your peril.

Yabby said

Gertrude dislikes snakes and crocs

Pale replies

No Sir Gerti, I don’t like them.

I dislike fashionable campaigns to look after snakes and crocks designed to benefit just a few tourism .

This affects other people’s lives styles for the worst.

Snakes are now out of control and moving into cities and Government has zero assistance.
However they warn families not to kill they or they will be charged.

Next week friends of mine have to move because they are terrified of them and that their kids will be bitten.

Snake handlers charge over three hundred and fifty dollars to just come out in the city= If you can get one.

Anyway the snakes bolted by the time the arrive and who can afford that every day.

As for Crocs go up the Daintree and see the old timers since they protected them.

Talk to the people who used to only have to swim across the river the school or the neighbors that otherwise couldn’t get there.

The guys who used to earn a quid from fishing and even water skiing.

Ever been out there Yabby? It’s B hot and these creatures deprive the locals from a Swim in the river.

Anyway it’s SO Stupid. I was looking into the evil eye of a croc just last week up a River.

Albert was twelve meters long. This bloke runs people up there in a "low open boat."!

The croc was creeping closer to the bank then coming back out gaining a inch or so each time. The old timer driving the tinny was edging up closer and closer.

Apparently Albert is suspected of killing a woman there several years ago at the back of their property on a steamy night after a party and Gummy another huge Croc.

My point is these tours are "dangerous unregulated" and "stuffing" up "everybody else from having a life style."

They used to Swim in there all the time but cant now since this stupid protection law.

Keep some and in one or two rivers for tourists. Shoot the god dam rest!

Pale, I do understand why you are afraid of snakes, but we are talking handguns here and the need for them in the bush. A snake in the bush should be allowed to live. No reason to go shooting it.

Iam a little dissappointed in your attitude to snakes and that you do discriminate between animals and dont treat them all as the living creatures that they are. Yes, a snake hanging around the front garden is a threat and I can agree it be necessary to get rid of it.

Everything has its place in this world and I am sure the snakes fits it nicely somewhere .....

PF
Snakes are a very real problem here in QLD.
Perhaps in a colder climate they may not bother you so much.
They are a reptile.
Apart from that public seem to care more about snakes and crocs than the millions of farm animals in intensive farms.
Thanks to the media. It makes my blood boil. At the same time holding their silence about Intensive poulty pork and other hell holes and live exports.
Do you know they send dogs overseas and their cooked alive?
No not many people do. All they ever hear about is beautiful reptile snakes and crocs.
You known some countries eat snakes. Maybe we should farm them and export them for food too.
I dont go looking for snakes in the outback but on my farm near my stock or in peoples houses and kids back yards the Government have no right to subject people to such utter danger.

Which reminds me has anybody ever heard Dr Harry saying one word about intensive Farms or live exports? No Just reptiles.

Its outragous to think the whole country is controlled.

I am going to start doing something about snakes in back yards on the Gold coast and surounding areas.
Screw the Authorites.

I bet things would change it was 'their' horses pets and kids! families having to move.

What a strange thread. I live in the bush (admittedly not in the WA outback), I've worked on farms and I know many graziers. In fact, after a lifetime - much of which has been spent in the bush - I can't recall meeting anybody, except police officers, who has claimed to need a handgun in the course of their rural occupations.

However, I know many who have legal rifles and shotguns that seem to suffice. Methinks this is just another Is Mise gun lobby beat-up.

I have to say that I also find the redoubtable PALEIF's curious attitudes to native reptiles somewhat inconsistent with their professed love of animals. While I agree that snakes and crocs are incompatible with the suburbs, they certainly have important roles in the wider Ausralian ecology.

On that subject, snakes (black, brown etc) are very common around where I live, and I've never heard of ANYBODY claiming to need a handgun to despatch them. PF is right - snakes are fine in the bush, just not around houses.

I find the business end of a long-handled spade works just fine to move snakes on from the house environs, and I understand that shotguns are even better :)

CJ,

This is not just a gun lobby beat up, if it were how did we manage to get that nice police Sgt in WA to say what he did?

Or those WA graziers to complain. Just where did you work in the bush that you never saw pistols?

This an example of political correctness versus work safety.
It's on a par with John Howard wearing body armour but denying it to service station attendants who obviously have more need of it.

Pale said,
[about crocs]"keep some and in one or two rivers for tourists. Shoot the rest ."
Pale that would be mistake .

Remember Noah took a couple of everything on his boat trip.

I heard a South American cattle rancher say he didn't mind jaguars killing his stock on occasion . He seemed to think they all had to live together.

No jaguars in pale's back paddock .

*Remember Noah took a couple of everything on his boat trip.*

So Jim, are you telling me that Noah had some aqauriums
on board, for all the freshwater fish? Was his son peddling
away to keep the oxygen up to them? If not, how did they
survive the big flood and all that salty water?

Just asking :)

I'm with you on that one CJ. I live and work in rural Australia, and I haven't seen any need for handguns on the stations round here. I don't know any farmers with handguns, though I know plenty of them with rifles.

Some might need them in rare instances, but by and large this smells like another push for handgun rights.

Is Mise, perhaps I'd be more persuaded if you weren't also so vociferous in your lobbying for handguns as use for 'protection' as it exists in the US, where gun violence is endemic.

This bears all the hallmarks of a trojan-horse style argument for reducing the restrictions on handguns.

I support the rights of farmers to have rifles. It is necessary to have firearms when dealing with things like wild dogs and other feral animals.

Handguns however, no way.
It's drawing a very long bow to say rifles won't suffice and that handguns are needed. The specific set of circumstances which have to be applied to make the scenario at all realistic just don't weigh up against the hazards of handgun ownership.

Posted by kartiya jim

No jaguars in pale's back paddock .

Yup and he keeps asking for you! Reckons he wants to see how you go with that Axe.

Er Nicky this site is familer-

Member Societies // Animals Australia
Animal Activism QLD. PO Box 703 Stones Corner QLD 4120 Contact: Debra Morris Web: http://www.animalactivism.org Email:. +. Animal Liberation QLD. PO Box 463
www.animalsaustralia.org/about/member_societies.php - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

RSPCA QLD CEO explained patiently what they can and can’t use as evidence in court.


RSPCA `can not` use evidence gained illegally- i.e. break and enter tress pass.

She had other ideas. Her partners “studying law” and knew better than RSPCA Lawyers. Assitance was offered.

Three occasions she failed to show. Not even a courtesy call.

A few weeks after =
http://www.animalactivism.org/campaigns/rspca-cruelty/

Reads as follows>

RSPCA Endorses Cruelty
A year long investigation into battery egg farms by animal activists has exposed routine cruelty in farms owned by organizations accredited by the RSPCA. Bla bla.
(As Hugh Wirth said= you can’t reason with these people.)

Cuphandle Said
I have seen criticism for and against the RSPCA and would like to make the following observations:
In my opinion the RSPCA loves to get involved in media publicized issues that will bring in extra gifts and donations to boost their organizations funds, eg: a recent case in Qld where they raided a property and confiscated approximately 80 dogs (in very poor condition!).....splashed all over the local TV Channels for the next couple of days!

Pale replies

Enough is enough.

How nasty and how typical. I would have thought most Animal Lovers would have been delighted that Mark took that on right in our worst season. BTW it wasn’t 80 dogs it was 100.

Would you have preferred him to do leave them there! How dare you criticize Mark. I will remind you that RSPCA have to provide funds for these animals out of their own budget.

Every NFP organization needs all the help they can get especially from media.

Unlike Animals Australia they are "hands on" attending thousands of call outs and even more phone calls.

RSPCA QLD are leading the way in Animal Welfare.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:fyFoofwRtZ4J:www.rspcaqld.org.au/aboutus/RSPCA-Qld-Annual-Report-06-07.pdf+rspca+qld+attend+thousands+of+complaints&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=a

Is Mise and everybody

I do aplogise. The comment above was posted on the wrong thread.

I knew I would do that one day.

Have fun talking about guns. BTW as I am in here dont some of you think given these times we are entering its kind of odd for nobody to have any weapons at all.
Speaking of the Lucky Country - or was they the clever country.

I mean wouldnt some feel safer if people living on our surounding borders and those areas were not left without any arms at all.

Oh well at least we all know we can go out and share the land with those few farmers left that hand some arms.

That is of course if A these old blokes are still alive and B they dont take their weapons from them.

I must say I havent heard of any gun slinging cow boys out the back on WA but with the media control these days how would we really know.

smile
Now that should bring your thread to life Ismise[smile)

TurnRightThenLeft,

OK so I've got influence with the WA police and the WA farmers.

You seem to think that it's OK for the stockmen to have rifles with which to protect themselves.

Am I right in thinking that?

Is Mise - I do believe we have all been saying we think its ok for for farmers/stockman to carry rifles - licensed users and licensed firearms of course.

Your use of the word 'protection' is loaded there, Is Mise.

I'd say the use of rifles is more about pest control than it is protection, but there would be certain instances where it's used to protect against feral animals, yes.

For which, rifles are just fine. So yes, there's support there for farmers to be able to use rifles. Handguns, which are easily concealed however, nope. Fraid not.

And if you're extending the use of the word protection for things like protecting against crime, that's a whole different matter altogether. If it's using handguns for this, I'm vehemently opposed.

Ise mise ,

Do you think almost anyone should easily be able to acquire either a rifle or a hand gun ?

Or should this be restricted to the regional and country areas?

If you do - why should be easily avaiable?

cheers ,KJ.

TRTL,

I'm using protection in the same context as the WA graziers. They contend, in part, that a hand gun is the only weapon that can be carried conveniently and that can be got into action quickly if charged by a scrub bull or a bull camel.

Maybe a rifle would do, should they be allowed to have pistols and/or rifles for self protection?

All graziers and farmers etc had their pistol licences cancelled in NSW years ago; was talking to the proprietor of a gun-shop in Inverell (NSW) last week on my way through there and he told me that he still has pistols, from graziers, that he hasn't been able to sell.

kartiya jim,

They are easily acquired by criminals, so why should we discriminate against honest law-abiding citizens?