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The Forum > General Discussion > Mutual Respect While Debating

Mutual Respect While Debating

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You do not have to look hard to see I have no halo, and my biases toward the ALP and the union movement are on clear display.
But just sometimes I feel we get too involved in our own side of an argument.
Some subjects are tabo, just not worth the effort, if you disagree with the threads direction you will find insults and it is just not worth getting involved.
Not a car park, not a lets gang up on any one but can we talk about the issue?
All ideas do have value, it is true, I am no PC giant much of the web is a mystery to me, I learn every day I live.
But is it not true some amount of bullying takes place on the web?
We do not see much of it here but why does it happen at all?
Let us look at why we value , or some of us do, only our view, why we feel insults are a debating tool.
I hope my posts are what I truly think, and that if I disagree with my party or movement I will say so.
I hope the day comes when any thread can be debated with mutual respect ,that the idea all views have value will be respected.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 5:30:16 AM
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I agree, those with least to say speak loudest.
Posted by Only Human, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 9:10:42 AM
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The bulliest also love to accuse others of bullying.
Posted by botheration, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 9:37:27 AM
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Dear Belly,

I fully agree. "Empty kettles make the most noise."

I've been against labelling people in some of the heated posts that we've had on this Forum.

I've been called a "Leftist Loonbag," and other names - simply because my point of view was unacceptable to some.

What I have learned though is - it's the way you present your views that makes a difference. If you state that you're only expressing an opinion - with the information you've got, people willl
accept it much better than if you act as if you "know it all."

And who of us really knows it all? As you pointed out Belly, we live and learn all the time. And to me that's one of the great things about this Forum...

Of course there are posters that will continue to insult no matter what. But those I tend to ignore anyway. Because to me, if you stoop to personal insults, you've automatically lost the debate.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 9:41:36 AM
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I concur with the posters so far, though I must admit, there's been a few occasions when I've risen to jibes to respond in kind, though I do try not to.
Sometimes however, when you see the same prejudices repeated over and over... well, I like to think I'm patient but sometimes it's difficult.
It is important to treat posters with respect, and even when you encounter nastiness it is most certainly better to try and avoid responding in the same vein.

The real question is... is it better to let abusive posts go unchecked and just ignore them, or is it better to challenge it and point out fallacies?
I sometimes wonder if someone views a thread that has become polluted with hateful language toward their culture/minority/people etc. and don't see people speaking against it, whether that would make it seem worse.

Is it better to leave it unchecked, without contrary views to fuel the thread so it dies out, or to make comment against abuse, so people are aware that there are others out there willing to speak against it?

It's a tough question.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 10:52:03 AM
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TurnRightThenLeft, everyone has prejudices. There is no-one that I know of that doesn't have opinions, beliefs etc.
I usually find that if someone says that I am prejudiced, what is meant is that our views differ quite a bit. So don't let differing viewpoints try your patience. The majority of posters on this site have different views from mine, but that's life.

As for abusive posts, some posters bring it on themselves by their manner of communication. For example a different view on immigration is accused of being 'racist claptrap' instead of being logically questioned. You're right that we shouldn't rise to jibes, but we're only human (no pun intended to poster of same name).
Posted by Jack the Lad, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 11:55:15 AM
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"Some subjects are tabo[o], just not worth the effort"

The whole concept of "taboo" is unnecessary and unjustifiable. Of course the site owner has every right to block topics that he believes are inappopriate, but if I want to start a thread about, say, necrophilia, I'll do it.

Pretending that uncomfortable and awkward topics don't exist is entirely counterproductive.

Speaking of...Jack, I'm still waiting to hear from you why you think faeces are an inferior form of food? (for flies, that is).
Posted by wizofaus, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 12:13:27 PM
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The frequent use of the term "bully" in these forums puzzles me greatly.

In my understanding, bullying involves trying to exercise power over another person through intimidation or physical violence. It seems to me impossible for bullying to occur when the parties involved are not personally known to each other, as is the case on OLO. While there's lots of nastiness around here, I haven't seen anything that can be described as bullying.

The definition of bullying on the Victorian Department of Education's Safe Schools site is followed by a section on What Bullying is Not: http://www.sofweb.vic.edu.au/wellbeing/safeschools/bullying/defbullying.htm#H3N400059

"There are three socially unpleasant situations that are often confused with bullying:

Mutual conflict:

In mutual conflict situations, there is an argument or disagreement between students but not an imbalance of power. Both parties are upset and usually both want a resolution to the problem. However, unresolved mutual conflict sometimes develops into a bullying situation with one person becoming targeted repeatedly for ‘retaliation’ in a one-sided way.

Social rejection or dislike:

Unless the social rejection is directed towards someone specific and involves deliberate and repeated attempts to cause distress, exclude or create dislike by others, it is not bullying.

Single-episode acts of nastiness or meanness, or random acts of aggression or intimidation:

If a student is verbally abused or pushed on one occasion they are not being bullied."

In OLO's particular context, it most definitely is not bullying to point out to someone that their words are hateful, ill-informed, destructive, abusive or ignorant. Further, doing so can never be a means of exercising power over that person.

Some of the ugliest lines I have ever read were here on OLO. Still (in response to TRTL’s question) I believe that the way to deal with prejudice is to name it, to shame it, and then to counter it with reasoned alternatives. The fact that OLO is often a platform for the very worst in our society exposes to those unaffected by bigotry the hatred that minorities experience on a daily basis.

Ugly opinions are not of themselves bullying, nor is arguing against them.
Posted by jpw2040, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 1:09:50 PM
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Begging your pardon. It was me that said "bullying". I stand corrected.
Posted by botheration, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 1:54:21 PM
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See?;-I told you it wasn't me!
Posted by Ginx, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 2:27:18 PM
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I do rise to jibes and far too often, but I am trying to not bother doing it again.
2 posts seem to think I am a bully, well maybe I bought that on myself by biting too often.
Few threads are of limits to me, like us all I have views on every thing.
Strangely my views are shared by most, but sometimes I do not express them well hence that view of me.
Foxy I have had much worse than you, see my union dragged into debate almost weekly and my party, see threads totally diverted just because I started them.
But I join a large group by not conversing with just a very few who respect only their own views.
In my job and my life I have come to know that any person in a group can be the one to solve the problem , new ideas can come via the cleaner.
Paradigm I think it is called and it is also true education is no measure of common sense.
Manners however speak more about us than anything.
We would not have to search far to find insults being exchanged instead of ideas.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 2:37:09 PM
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Belly,
Agree with your assessment of the state-of-play on OLO.
But would add, it's also characteristic of the greater community.
The media is often not very accepting of non-conformist ideas and just loves to vilify certain personages.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Belly, you're one of the good guys on OLO ( there are not many of us left/right )– you must have been a liberal in one of your past lives!
Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 5:58:25 PM
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Trtl,

Your question of whether one should keep quiet when seeing someone cop a rough time or show some support?

O.k., so I know I'm probably not typical as, being bi-polar I could be (am?) classified as having a mental illness. The reason I make no secret about it is because I know there's so many people out there with problems who all think they are alone. So I make no bones about it. To show solidarity as it were. However, what I'm trying to say is, maybe my reactions are just a tad over-the-top at times.

But there was a point where I totally fell out of my tree and went into a deeply depressive episode (y'know, self-harming, attempted suicide etc.)when the trigger was some of the posters on OLO.

O.k., so maybe, by the strict definition, no bullying takes place. But when posters accuse one of being untruthful, a bad mother, demand to be able to get in touch with your kids, be able to contact friends to verify what you say, accuse your kids(!) of things, apart from accusations about ones own personality, it has the power to hit you where you live. Once only did someone say "Hey, lay off", but for the rest I felt, because no-one was supporting me, not just alone, but as if all those things were true.

Yeah, I may be a-typical in being so thin-skinned, but nothing I had ever been through before (and that's actually more than your average bear)had prepared me to be on the receiving end of so much bile and degradation from total strangers.

O.k., so I feel a little ashamed to admit what a wimp I am, but I can't think that I am the only person who has ever been hurt here. So now I try to give support and I fight back more.

But yeah, I reckon we should ride to the rescue if possible: after all, we never know just where someone is in their life or how much they need us, do we?
Posted by Romany, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 7:14:40 PM
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Dearest Romany,

I've always found your posts right on the mark. Well written, thought provoking and very valid. They have actually helped me re-think things and take a different approach to the one I had originally planned. This Forum to me has been a god-send - in many ways, and you dear lady, have been an important part of it for me.

I just thought you need to know - you do matter. You matter a great deal. And I'm sure to not just me on this Forum.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 7:33:41 PM
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I agree Romany - you're a real star of the board as far as I'm concerned. (As are you Foxy, for that matter.) I'm often in awe of how neatly and adroitly and cleverly and bravely you can sum up an argument, when I feel I flounder around so much.

While I did take the point about using the word "bullying", I've also been "hurt" - pathetic and girly though that sounds - on this forum. I disclosed some personal and sensitive (non-identifying) information about myself, only to have said information... I dunno... used to prove I'm not much of a person, or something. It wasn't fair, it was nonsensical but it still hurt.

Romany, you came in to save the day.

Like Romany, I'm not saying I'm not oversensitive. But there it is, nonetheless.
Posted by botheration, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 8:50:17 PM
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All the posts after my last have been uplifting, true they remind me we are a community.
It is not soft to admit we have been hurt, I am no wimp but gee if you only knew how hurt I have been.
During a thread about unions I said I had no reason to support thugs and mugs in union shirts.
That post was distributed to every construction site I service, it hurt!
But I picked up more membership from it.
I think friend rather than being an ex Liberal I even at my age may be a truly new Labor person.
It is true that good ideas good policy's do not belong only to one side of any issue.
Romany you do better than me and with that handy cap? I admire you very much.
I however never want us who use this forum to forget some threads are better left alone, sad but lets not lie, if your views differ good manners are the last thing you will receive.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 10 January 2008 5:14:50 AM
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perhaps your local high school has a debating club, that you can watch. if so, you'll see that they'll play by the rules. that's because there are rules, and an umpire.

on the web in general, "it ain't necessarily so." on the up-side, there's no faces, and often no names. even rudeness loses some of it's sting when it's so impersonal. in any event, the important aspect is some combination of self-confidence and courage: put your opinion out there and let the world do what it will.

it's unfortunate that oz is crushed by the british class system into swallowing the notion that only parliamentarians should have any input into politics. this is a hold-over from the days when parliament was the debating club of the ruling class. it means these discussions are fundamentally futile. but i hope young ozzies will develop a stronger notion of self-worth from being exposed to simulated democracy, however feeble. maybe someday they will evolve into citizens, even though evolution into cattle/robots seems more likely due to the rapid developments in dna engineering and cyber control technology.
Posted by DEMOS, Thursday, 10 January 2008 6:48:03 AM
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I have both given it and taken it! I look at it as banter and nothing more. I usually have a bit of a giggle if somebody attacks me personally. Its just a forum people if you don’t like it there are plenty of other forums which ban people if they say the word poo or if you question one of the long term members logic!

I will say it again, it is just harmless banter.
Posted by EasyTimes, Thursday, 10 January 2008 7:15:01 AM
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wizofaus, you are joking...I hope.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Thursday, 10 January 2008 8:02:44 AM
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I can only concur with what posters have said thus far, and say that romany foxy and botheration, you've all provided doses of sanity and understanding in some threads that seem to go a little haywire at times.

In relation to abusive commentary... I can (and have) deal with abuse being flung my way, that comes hand in hand with challenging certain posters.
What annoys me I suppose, are the comments that attack people who aren't around to speak in their favour.
I'm talking about things like racist comments - JackTheLad, when I say racist comments, I don't mean people who want to restrict immigration. I don't mean people who say they're worried about aspects of certain religions and I don't mean people who point out the uglier sides of the histories of nations.
While I often disagree with the sentiments expressed, I concede they're valid, and I've never once recommended a post for deletion (actually, there was once mobile phone spam, but I don't think that counts).

What I mean, is being abusive. It's not just racism, some posters have said there should be genocide against certain age groups, other posters have simply been callous about other people's suffering.

There are also attacks on religious people - while I've made it quite plain I don't have much time for religion, I try to direct my criticism to the religion itself, not its practitioners. When I see people who are able to dismiss people as somehow lesser people based on what they believe, I can't help but think that allowing that mindset is what allowed the horrors of WW2. It's an extreme example that's trotted out far too often, I know, but I think it remains valid.

When I ask about commenting on threads gone ugly, I'm not necessarily referring to stepping in to stop posters from being abused. That's an easier question.
I do still wonder whether by commenting on those threads, even when there's no posters present who are being targetted, I'm just fuelling them to continue further, or whether it's crucial that other voices do speak up.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 10 January 2008 9:19:20 AM
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Jack, not at all. Indeed I've started another thread about it.
Posted by wizofaus, Thursday, 10 January 2008 9:26:42 AM
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Welcome to the internet Belly. This is a place where we come in contact with individuals of all spheres (or squares) of thought. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion and the safety of anonimity that comes with the net gives people the deutch courage to be and say whatever they like. This is something we've all gotta beaware of and if you don't have the conviction to stand up for your beliefs with maturity and emotional armour then you shouldn't take part.

This place is a childrens playground when it comes to debating. You can't get anything going and it takes weeks for a debate to progress, but whether we like it or not everyone has the right to voice what they want, how they want. We all should be heard. Fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be) this place doesn't allow for passionate discussion. I'm all for respect, but wake up and smell reality. Read the paper and see how much respect is going around this planet.
Posted by StG, Thursday, 10 January 2008 9:34:11 AM
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wiz, can't wait for your gastronomical thread on jobbies.
Posted by Jack the Lad, Thursday, 10 January 2008 10:58:46 AM
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http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/logical-fallacies.html
Posted by freediver, Thursday, 10 January 2008 11:04:09 AM
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Foxy, Botheration, Belly et. al. thank you for your surprising input. I've gone to the other extreme now, and feel all shy!

For those who stressed the "anonymity" aspect: that, unfortunately doesn't apply. When I write articles of course I use my own name and certain posters gleefully made the connection (they must have a lot of time on their hands: I mean imagine taking things so seriously you would bother to go to the trouble?). Which is why I completely freaked when mention was made of contacting my children and personal friends. God, Belly, I can empathise with your episode.

Trtl - right, I getcha. Yeah, it's a bit of a conundrum. I leave it alone if the subject is religion or abortion or the kinds of things people lay their ears back about. But when I see people working on mistaken assumptions, or through willfull ignorance, I get sucked in.

I figure we are all supposed to learn through communication, otherwise its pointless. I know that while I have a lot of "book-learning" I learn equally as much through other people. So when I am able to I try to share any info I have on things.

Have learned however that there are some who post only for the ego-massage of seeing their gems of wisdom in print...so them I now ignore. Like disruptive kids, they appear only to be looking for attention - good or bad makes no difference. I don't like playing such infantile games.
Posted by Romany, Thursday, 10 January 2008 1:31:30 PM
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I have only just discovered this forum and thankfully your posts were very timely. I quickly realised in would be unwise to post under my own name!

I dont expect that this will be a place to just make nice and agree with everyone so that no feelings are hurt.
Posted by I_Spy, Thursday, 10 January 2008 1:54:26 PM
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Dearest Botheration,

Thanks for your kind words. You've cheered me up so many times. I think you're simply Terrific! (There I've said it!) But you are!
Your sense of humour has had me giggling many a post, as well as being "right on the money," with most of them.

And by the way, welcome back. I've missed seeing you on the Forum
until recently. Good to have your input again.

Dearest Romany,

I meant what I wrote earlier. Please keep on contributing. We need more like you (intelligent - diplomatic - to the point) on this Forum.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 January 2008 3:19:20 PM
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In no forum is it wise or needed that we unmask ourselves, I however have done so, after continuing taunts.
StG why the heat? I have never found your posts any of them rude or in any way wrong.
On other forums I had posted for years, let me tell you StG I know it is the Internet.
Strangely I could not level a charge against in my view the worst offender, it would look like flaming.
But surely it is not a requirement that we be rude to those who think differently than us?
Take the rubbish put on DAVID BOAZ do we need to do that?
We in this forum, the only one I currently use are not as bad of as some others.
But we must understand we do not have to except it as it is just the Internet Belly, no answer to bad behavior.
Now the name thing ,it is a tactic some use , to constantly annoy some with taunts you do not even use your own name!
From the days of feather pens and ink pamphlets often did not include names, they never needed to.
Do not fall for it . keep your name safe.
But knowing my sign in Was my life's nick name, on every work shirt I bought and paid for just under Union forever Belly, meant I was never in hiding.
Posting my name and union here was however a mistake, some only find courage behind a tree, while hidden.
Fact remains no subject is taboo but some threads are if your views differ believe me it is true
regards all.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 10 January 2008 3:20:43 PM
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Nothing was meant to come across as aimed at you specifically, Belly. I see after re-reading my comment that it would come across that way. 'pologies.
Posted by StG, Thursday, 10 January 2008 3:40:09 PM
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Now that everyone is being nice to each other can we get back to fighting... Ha!

I too have been guilty at times of being a little tough on people... Having only been wrong once in my life I feel I am in the best position to comment on this thread... Ha!

I blame my parents for me and my only mistake was my first breath... Ha!

Now enough of this niceness... I have a weak stomach...
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 10 January 2008 8:39:32 PM
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It's a funny thing Belly, but I've thought about this and think that often the people who I clash with most here are the ones I would most likely enjoy a night out with.

Contributions here suffer from not just name calling, but sometimes with too much earnestness, and too little humour.

Irony is a hard thing to communicate in a few words, and often comes across as crassness. It's a bit like a joke, if you gotta explain it it just aint worth it.

Satire is all but non-existent here.

Provocation can be gamesy(sic), and not just of bad intent.

My pet peeve is how some insist on 'proof' to justify what are only opinions. Key words here are 'insist' and 'opinions'. Each of us experiences the world in our own way.

So all the best for '08 and keep on truckin'.
Posted by palimpsest, Thursday, 10 January 2008 9:28:02 PM
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Palimpsest I agree, I truly do, but if you think about it you will find a few who you could not sit down with for a single minute.
Do not look for the average poster to find those who concern me, look for those who claim ownership of ideas.
Owner ship of crusades, strangely you will find an intent to own issues and a failure to understand that simple idea, any one can have the answer to any problem.
As evidence for your idea of that cup of coffee or meal let me tell you my closest brother votes conservative.
Hates unions, has the IQ of a garden sparrow, yet he and I can have a drink and a fight together and love it.
As a point of interest my once boss in the union movement, now dead had a few beers with John Howard.
He had also had one with every Labor leader, he reported he would rather drink with Howard than any of them!
Posted by Belly, Friday, 11 January 2008 5:47:50 AM
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Interesting thread.

Part of the discussion has concerned the value of stepping in or leaving it alone.

None of us can hope to address everything that happens here. We will pick up on some stuff and miss other things, we all have post limits, most have limited time and limited capacity to follow the nuances of a discussion which becomes heated or the shared history of combatants.

Having said that I've poked my nose in several occasions when an attack on a poster seems really unfair or way out of line. I've nominated a number of posts for deletion but those have been for serious breaches of forum rules - one was advertising, another was straight flaming with no attempt at article content and I think the others were all proposing violence.

I've appreciated it when other posters have spoken in my defence.

I've been truly glad of my use of an alias when I've been involved in heated discussions with individuals who give the impression that they have no respect for boundaries. Those who might use whatever they have to hurt you if they feel aggrieved. People who I would not want contacting me or my family, my employer or friends.

I know of posters who've left the forum because of the abusive nature of some posters. One in particular I sometimes disagreed with but counted as one of the best.

Belly thanks for starting this and for the other posters who have made serious and valuable contributions (especially Romany) - thanks.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 11 January 2008 9:05:11 PM
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I am very glad to see you are still around RObert, I have not seen you in print for a while.
You do set a standard here in my view and while we are on different sides of the fence you have my respect.
I started the thread after considering leaving the forum.
Just as honest as that , yes I went a bit too far in rebutting a barbed and insulting series of insults, I flamed.
Yet it was not aimed at the person I was charged with.
The thread had to come I was forgetting my own posts in rebuttal of my target, some are unable to understand others have the right to their views.
I can do better than that!
It is a shame some do leave forums after such things , I have done so before,but maybe reviewing the events and being a refugee from some posters is the answer.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 12 January 2008 6:02:35 AM
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It was really difficult when I first joined this Forum to learn that not everybody went by the rules of an "academic debate or discussion."
In other words, some people stooped to personal insults. And I was quite taken aback at the sheer venom coming from some of the posters.

It was hard not to react when someone attacked you personally and made assumptions about you that you knew were wrong.

These attacks usually came when you were feeling the most vunerable.
You wanted to shout, "But I'm not like that!" Then you felt the need to explain and justify yourself ...

But with experience, I am learning not to react. I now try not to get involved in personalities - but there are times when the right buttons are pushed and I will "spit the dummy,"( and be ashamed of it later).

I'm not suggesting that we have to agree with each other - What I would like to see is for us to "be civilized," in our discussions.
Just because someone has a different opinion to yours does not make them wrong, or deserving of a "label."
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 January 2008 10:19:00 AM
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Is this one of the examples we are discussing here?

http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/index.php?id=1

David
Posted by Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc, Saturday, 12 January 2008 10:42:18 AM
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AFA your thread is not one I speak of I have visited it and posted but know of no behavior of concern.
I have no wish to highlight threads or posters that only in my opinion , are wrong.
In fact Foxy and you came to this forum long after the outbreak of small wars.
It is my view, truly, that we are better not being other than refugees from some threads and some posters.
Look make up your own mind but some truly insulting and wrong things have been said, we give air to those who do not deserve it by highlighting them.
I too Foxy, all of us, do go of now and again , we should try not to do it, and we will.
I without shame am an activist, long ago I made up my mind to try to change things that need changing, but some things take time.
Some things never change no matter how much we try, if we try, fail but keep our cool we never failed at all
Regards all.
PS the history of this forum can be read by clicking on all and setting your search for threads up to 2 years old , if nothing else some good ideas and threads will resurface.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 12 January 2008 12:58:06 PM
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Belly and other folk,

The perceived problems with the OLO forum antagonistic behaviour is a common theme with most forums I have visited. It is not something we should be upset about but it should be viewed as a part of human nature. When prejudices we hold are threatened, it is normal behaviour to respond in a way that protects them. I think the crunch is that others viewing outright self-protecting mechanisms should point out to the poster, exhibiting such methods, in and educative manner and not as a reprimand, that they may be overstepping the mark. To remain silent, even if ones own thoughts agree with badly concluded propositions, only adds to the problem.

If the reaction is left only to the poster in question at the time, she/he may respond badly because of the lack of support from others.

Boiled down, if irrationality is evident, a consensus opinion needs to point that out.

Generally speaking, this does not happen, so we must persevere with accepting the consequences of overall inaction. No big deal.

(I admit this is all bordering on gibberish)

David
Posted by Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc, Saturday, 12 January 2008 6:38:46 PM
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Y'know, I don't think its gibberish. I think you have a really valid point. Also a rebuttal to those who say - ah look, everyone's else is doing it, get over it.

Anyone ever given that "If your friends all jumped off a cliff would you do it too?" line by teachers or family when young? As with many cliches, I think it's message is quite valid. Kinda like Kipling's "If" which tends to be regarded as one giant and jingoistic cliche now.

But, just because the Internet is full of badly adjusted people getting their jollies from attacking unknown opponents, I don't see this as a meaningful reason for behaving the same way.

I consider we really do have (another cliche)a duty of care to other beings, both human and non human. So yeah, James, why should we all just accept it when someone (even if it is we ourselves. As Belly said, we've all done it) behaves unacceptably?. And why the hell should we consider it acceptable behaviour just because there's so much of it?

I live in a country where an entire bus can watch someone stealing a purse out of someone's handbag and not say a word. I witnessed an older woman beating her tiny (presumably) grandson about the head with an umbrella while people averted their eyes, and have seen persons knocked over on zebra crossings while people just walk round them. Its extreme, I know, but who wants to live in a society that shrugs and says "Ah, everyone does it. Get over it?"

PS Aw shucks, Robert. Thanx. Good to hear from you again.I've also missed you
Posted by Romany, Saturday, 12 January 2008 9:57:54 PM
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David you are in unknown waters here,I can assure you the very many posters who tried rational debate all failed.
I can also assure you it takes two sides to find reason to disagree however if one side holds the view only they know you can never progress.
Your hobby horse, we all have them, is one that brings heated views yet here in this forum we had a long running thread is there a God?without much strife.
This forum is not unlike any other , most who post here are not mean spirited or deliberately rude.
Some are clearly uninformed.
Some do not value majority views.
Some while holding minority views claim support they will never have.
Some fail to even Begin to know while most people understand issue they may not see the issue as they do.
And in truth we should aim for better always, it is true that the Internet allows some to hide behind the key board and try to impress us , it is also true they rarely do by bad actions.
Be honest is there anyone you have just given up on in debate?
See it is not unusual! we come here to hear and be heard yes we all do, we come to learn and maybe to teach.
But some teach us not to get involved with them.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 13 January 2008 5:49:50 AM
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Thanks, Romany.

Belly,

Atheism is not so much a “hobby horse” of mine, as I have many interests in life. But when I am responding under the Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc banner, I am restricted somewhat, to Atheism.

David
Posted by Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc, Sunday, 13 January 2008 8:41:35 AM
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Wise move there David. Posting unrelated topics under the banner of an organisation can lead to all manner of strife:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=989&page=0#17393
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Sunday, 13 January 2008 9:09:21 AM
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I am not sure it does turn right then left.
However we would be better of without it.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 13 January 2008 3:57:11 PM
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My last post did not add to the debate, I had just visited a thread that had stalled, a new post was my reason.
It both diverted the thread totally from its subject and for about the one hundred time was aimed at stirring me.
I just have to say it, why?
Respect, such a small word but some do not even begin to understand it.
Symptoms of something of more concern than bad manners are sometimes on display why?
In truth I think far more than me are in that refugee camp, maybe in time it will work.
A wander into old threads, a look at the miss use of them may convict us all but it will highlight a trend too.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 14 January 2008 6:02:48 AM
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Funny enough it happened again.
No reason to be surprised it happens very often.
Tell me my fellow posters am I too sensitive? or is it as I think wrong to divert every thread?
It looks to be rule number one do not divert threads but it happens most times , if it does not add to the general direction of the thread why do it?
Mutual respect while debating is not shown by some.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:24:35 AM
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Debating a subject is fun, or at least it should be.
Anyone against a debate is either hiding something or is too stupid or ignorant to persue a particular matter, I prefer to think the latter.
Having mutual respect for another and for his/her comments, is good gesture in conversation,debacle,topic of discussion and so forth.

Should one hold grievance, grudge or ill feelings toward another...tough!, take it, sift through it, dont't like it,discard it!

Thats my motto and stick by it, who are those to think they are better than anyone else on any subject? I know of Phd's who can't even ride a bicycle, cannot sign their own name and have flunked at Science, yet managed to obtain a doctorate!

So to those who THINK they know better [deleted for breaching forum rules.]
Posted by SPANKY, Thursday, 17 January 2008 8:12:27 AM
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That SPANKY is not debate.
I have however seen you do so and in threads that are a debate about behavior here.
It is not cool to be rude, or for that matter crude.
The subject was room to debate and in some ways a reminder that we are all on display in every post.
I do hold grievances, but very few of them, in any subject any one can have the answer, if they are allowed to have an opinion.
Some value only opinions that are the same as the ones they hold.
My words, all our words, in print often look to say something other than I wanted them to.
But trash talking is rarely on my list regarding the value of a post.
It is however the complex number of views and opinions that make the forum worth reading and differences of opinion are not wrong.
Why education got into your post has me stumped, I passed with flying colors in returning the milk bottles and burning the rubbish.
Those to are the only memory's of my bush school and education.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 17 January 2008 2:32:37 PM
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Free diver I followed your link at last, it was informative thanks.
Are visitors welcome?
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 17 January 2008 5:06:05 PM
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Belly..check carefully,

I did not mention school in my thread.
Posted by SPANKY, Thursday, 17 January 2008 6:13:02 PM
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Dear Spanky,

PhDs may not be good at "everything", as you point out. However they are good at least in "something." What about yourself? What's your claim to fame apart from a limited vocabulary in four letter words?
(smile).
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 17 January 2008 7:00:00 PM
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What about respect for the authors on the article comment page? I've never seen such invective. Here's a selection:

"the original article was a pretentious wank intended to draw a crowd for the narcissistic ego of the author"

"Pseud prole-fagging pieces like this contribute zilch, xcept p'haps to the ego of the blogger who gets to indulge his/her camp obsession, tip a bucket, ignore contra-indication, depth and fundamental facts, and con and/or comfort idiotic, like-minded others." (Love this writing, however.)

"I have read some utter tripe on this site but this piece might take the biscuit."

&etc

Most writers aren't narcissists with chips on their shoulders, they're just people with stuff to say that you may or may not agree with. Most commenters are probably brainy, polite people IRL. But on here? There's a lot of comments that don't engage with the piece intellectually, but just lay in to the author. Really nasty stuff. Sure, some of these are probably written by the classic powerless person who takes to bullying others online. That's pretty common. But it also seems to be part of the culture of this place. There's a lot of nutters - a lot of very bitter men, and quite a few religious freaks.

It's scary.
Posted by Vanilla, Saturday, 19 January 2008 1:13:30 PM
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Those that do get frustrated with this site should take a look at New Matilda. http://www.newmatilda.com/ It's free these days, and while it's drier, there are some people who post here who probably won't be posting there.

Just saying.
Posted by Vanilla, Saturday, 19 January 2008 2:18:00 PM
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Let us not get too involved in the here part of that last post.
An earlier post by StG was quite right, the Internet will always bring those who need to abuse others.
In fact it will also bring those powerless ones you speak of.
I take offense at the sling about men, some yes are nasty but it is no more likely a man will offend than a woman.
You rightly highlight answers to posted items can be bad, but so too can the items, some fit the descriptions.
It is debatable if the description is any better than the item they complain about.
If we in a post understand we may be taking a stand few share we at least know what some do not.
Some are so intent on crusades they ignore the fact others may not share the passions, in fact may do so but be driven away by not being able to contribute without insults.
I one day would like to see us able to have a poll on some threads, it would be interesting to know what contributers think on issues in that way.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 19 January 2008 7:16:45 PM
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Belly: "I take offense at the sling about men, some yes are nasty but it is no more likely a man will offend than a woman."

Sorry Belly. I hate to offend and I apologise for it. I do agree that it's no more likely a man will offend than a woman. I have encountered some men here who are very bitter about women and feminism, but if I'm wrong to suggest there are more of them than there are offensive women, and that's incorrect, sorry.
Posted by Vanilla, Saturday, 19 January 2008 8:40:30 PM
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No offense taken Vanilla you make a point that I must agree with but some forms of feminism confront most men.
Indeed some times it confronts women as well.
In my life I have seen so much change in the way females express themselves and the place they take in the world it is hard to recall how it once was.
We do have a female Deputy Prime Minister after all.
However I as I always do, reserve my right to oppose extremism in all its forms.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 20 January 2008 5:16:02 AM
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Hi Foxy, please note, it was not the four letter word you think, shows where ones mind is doesn't it?

As far as my profession is concerned, let's just say that I have a back-ground that covers every thing that begins with Psy and in some cases has a Dr. in front of it for some reason. You may also want to check your library for one of my books, Titled "Where to now?"

It's doing quite well and refers specifically to those who have encountered certain aspects of life and how to deal with them.

You did ask......
Posted by SPANKY, Sunday, 20 January 2008 6:02:45 AM
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Dear Spanky,

Your "F" word was taken the way you intended it to be taken - so don't pull my leg.

Having a Dr. as a preface - Congratulations! - but does it mean what I think it means or is it more of your mind games?

Now, here's something intended to make you smile ...

As you pointed out - we all know what "BS" means. And an - "MS" - is more of the same.
Whereas a "PhD" is - piled higher and deeper ... (smile).

You see - we agree!
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 20 January 2008 10:14:44 AM
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SPANKY I would have expected better of you, sorry but if you went to all that trouble to gain that, why speak in such terms?
I have seen many posts from you and gained the view, no insult intended just my view before your last post, that you had too much time on your hands.
The F word was thrown with all the intent you meant, but why?
Consider this please to both overvalue your own thoughts and under value those of others may make you twice defeated.
In truth mutual respect is only the start , we can all learn that higher education is no evidence of IQ.
Nore is it proof of a higher place in life Good manners are an assert bad an anchor.
OLO is not a home for more pests than any other forum in fact it is better than many but no reason exists to stop looking for better behavior from me and every one else.
In truth every debate should be open to every opinion, sometimes it is not unless you want to be insulted.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 20 January 2008 3:47:32 PM
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It would be almost unforgivable to attack somebody from another country over their spelling wouldnt it?

Especially if it were a lady whom had already posted she was from Germany and asked people to be a bit tolerant of how she expressed herself but making promises to try harder to learn English a little better.

I mean you wouldnt expect some bloke to come in and call her uneducated with a low IQ and spelling mistakes always an interesting read would you.

Its sad that lady stopped posting after that.

Mutual Respect of others and their feelings is important.

I know this person and she was in tears over that very rude unkind comment.

Likewise I think its important on any forum we follow the rules of the editor.

Not much point them making rules if others then open a thread to challange those rules using the posters as victims.

I can recall another lady who posts very little on OLO now because she was scoffed at for trying to warm another poster the person he was writing to was a scam from a intro company.

That is why OLO does not use there organisation as a match makers guide.

I am not saying it was the other posters intentions to use it that way either especially given i suspect they were on the other team.

This is a really good service and I am glad its not been used as a intro service.

Still getting back onto the topic about mutual respect while debating- I agree its terribly important that we all respect each other.

If a person does not have a political understanding they tend to post with in mind every comment is about them personally.

One way to avoid this would be to do some reading on the topic before lashing out.

It may also save a few red faces when the person finally works out that they were wrong either by misunderstanding the others comment or just posting any rubbish making complete gooses out of themselves.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:55:00 AM
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BTW
We often send our alert emails out with just F in the subject line.
F meaning = Funny.

I suppose what this shows is the level of others we are debating.

We find Spanky informed and polite with a GSH

Ah, thats = Good Sense of Humour= just in case people with claims x journos or others misunderstand the meaning of GSH

Well carry on team and remember its always important to have a mutual repect for others.

Even if some are litterally on the other team. Always remember to say to yourself= But for the grace of God there goes I.

Other wise it may comeback and bite your all on the bum
Ah, bottom for those of the sensitive nature.

We are looking to by Spankys book.

Just out of mutal respect to learn a little more before going off half cocked.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 26 January 2008 12:15:44 PM
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I would be more than happy to say in the past I got a bit too hot a few times.
In real life those who know me understand I would not without provocation insult any one.
Search the posts highlighted and yes you will find I did use those terms, before you convict me see why I did so provocation aimed to hurt me.
See posts in the car parks, both mine and others.
For my sometimes offensive retaliations I WAS wrong , I truly will not do it again.
Search my posts, I often search others , reading what others think is half my reason for being here.
Fair minded people will see I have offered the peace pipe very often, no more.
I watch others say if you differ with some you will be insulted live threads here prove it.
It lowers the standards of our forum to even debate with some, I never will again.
We must understand we are all wrong sometimes, and that no law exists that we must agree with every thing others say.
I will leave threads rather than make trouble but the group who haunt me must try to keep the verbal boots in their cupboard, people who think insults are only a tool for them are quite wrong.
I have no idea who posts as pale today and not many do , with respect let us agree we have nothing in common and end this childish mud throwing.
And if some do not have the time to re read threads let me remind you, the first stone was an insult that I am not a union official.
It is untrue and was used as a weapon to hurt a debating tool , yet at least I understand my harsh words never should have been needed, truly most I Believe have long ago formed their own views about pale and about me too.
Thanks to those who contributed to a worth while thread I will keep my promise no matter what future provocations come my way, and they will sadly come.
regards
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 26 January 2008 5:32:15 PM
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I think that’s as close as we are ever going to get to an apology.
Please know we have never directed comments about ALP personally at you.
We do tend to crack jokes but that is to defuse not enforce.
Umm, just a tad confused re the job description. It was yourself who posted that not us.
How on earth would we know what anybody did for employment unless informed.
Regardless forgotten now I hope.
May I suggest with respect that in a political forum people make political comments.

We can’t not make political comments and do our job at the same time.

We sincerely regret that you have taken our comments regarding ALP as a personal insult. It is not now and never was our intention.

(Jokes aside) We will always crack jokes belly.

It’s just us. - Nothing personal.

Howard’s Government received far more attention given they had years to do the right thing.
ALPs track record isn’t much better I am afraid.

Try not to take comments personally if they involve your party is my advise to you.
Remember we work with amieu so it’s not like we don’t support the people doing the right thing. I am sure you try to do likewise.

Best wishes for your future endeavors belly
Pale
Australia Day
2008
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 26 January 2008 9:28:19 PM
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My last comment I will ever make to your group, the host who post as pale, and pale admits it is many, share one symptom.
A deliberate verbal assault takes place against those who hold differing opinions, this is always followed with a we did not mean it mate denial.
The post saying I was not a union official was a planned insult, known to be both wrong and that it would hurt me in my deepest feelings.
It is true that if you disagree with pale you will be insulted.
I without shame am an alpha male, yet I would spring to open a door for any female or to protect her till death.
If she knew more than me I would follow her without pain equality is my dream.
My apology is both true and forever yet I do think pale owes many who post here much more.
In a post this last month pale asked Foxy to pat sky for them,my dog, on face value a mistake, but that driving concern pale has that some of us are others who once crossed verbal swords with pale concerns me.
Does one of those who post as pale think I am Foxy?
So very many times I asked those posting as pale to consider why more than one do so, how can we debate if its a tag team?
Why not consider this?
I have no idea who I debate with , but a good understanding no mistake has been made the venom in some pale posts is on display.
Last I have an active interest in stopping true animal cruelty so follow such threads , but refrain mostly from posting, why take the risk?
It concerns me however, how can a meat export company also be an animal welfare group?
I believe we have reached an agreement , we will not again talk to each other let us leave it at that.
Pause before posting pale please consider how many you have crossed swords with here and ask your self , are others opinions their Right?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 27 January 2008 5:36:37 AM
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Pale replies
Yes I did see your comment in the meat forum and thought it was a interesting one.

Belly. Nobody is interested what people do for a living.

A few posts above I think you said you were upset because somebody referred to you as a union official. "Now it’s the other way around".

Look I don’t have the time to waist on this type of stuff.

Why do you keep making posts about yourself? Why not just debate the topic.

Although I am sure some of us form bonds it’s not a place to come to meet new friends it’s a forum for political comment.

Your own common sense must tell you that if you keep saying you are a union bloke someone will tell you what they think of unions in general and many comments you might not like.

I myself don’t like unions. I remember what is like trains buses planes even nurses.

However I don’t hold "you" responsible for goodness sake.

I do on the other hand reserve the right to debate unions if I so see fit.

Belly said
It concerns me however, how can a meat export company also be an animal welfare group?

Pale replies

The Company HKM is a separate ID from pale that works to promote the chilled trade to replace the live animal trade.
RSPCA QLD working with pale and Muslim leaders has attempted to spear head this project to phase out live in replacement of chilled.
BTW pale do not fund raise unlike every other organization and our staff are none paid.
HKM is supported strongly by the Humane Society and Bridgett Bardott.
The truth is Yabby and PF [who are both farmers are right)
Some groups seem to do a lot of fund raising and nothing else.
Pale is not one of them. In that way we are a bit like you.
We wear our hearts on our sleeves and put our own money where our mouths are.
Have a good Day Belly
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 27 January 2008 7:45:54 AM
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