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The Forum > General Discussion > Savage Dogs Do We Need Them?

Savage Dogs Do We Need Them?

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The death of yet another child needlessly brings me to ask why have breeds that kill?
My dog could harm a child it is only 100mm high and a pup but it never will.
Yet why do we have large breeds in our homes that are known to have killed?
Some will spring to the defense of big dog breeds and even talk of small dogs hurting kids.
But some of the owners of dogs that killed would have once been in that group.
Country towns are full of yobos who knowingly train dogs to be aggressive toward people who come near the Ute.
And some drug users train dogs to be Gard's a dangerous practice.
Why have a dog to be tough for you? isn't that a weakness?
A dog is a mate a true Friend and hopefully no ones enemy but people still refuse to understand they are pack animals and will react differently to new things.
Some dog breeds are of little true use in city's yet that is the place you will find them locked in small back yards.
Yards that they claim ownership of and defend constantly , no life for a dog.
Governments will impose themselves more on every dog owner to try to stop further needless deaths.
Just maybe we should license owners and dogs.
How do we handle the growing list of needless death?
My little dog comes from a breed with a long history of wanting to be every ones mate and training will see it stays that way maybe just a start?
She will never wander the streets but not see a day she does not run in a paddock freely.
She will not be neglected but before she is one year old 4 or 5 kids will be killed by dogs in this country , remember those dog owners if asked today will say my dog is safe , bullet proof no worries.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 29 December 2007 7:07:57 PM
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Belly

The title "Savage Dogs Do We Need Them?" is inappropriate.

It should read:

"Savage Dog OWNERS Do We Need Them?"

In addition, guard dogs, trained to protect businesses, should be outlawed. These animals usually spend most of their untethered time totally alone including weekends. As you have stated, dogs are pack animals and detest being alone. During business opening hours you will discover these guard dogs usually tied up out of sight.

Dogs which are constantly incarcerated in back yards or on the end of a chain become bored, depressed and savage. Worse, the ridiculous welfare laws permit it.

Do not attack the breed of any dog. Go after the cretins who are legally permitted to take dominion over these poor creatures. These cretins usually take possession of intimidating dogs to compensate for their retarded intellect.

You and I have access to country paddocks to enable our dogs to run freely, however that does not give us the right to dictate to those responsible and caring dog owners who do not!

Furthermore, I have witnessed the savagery of a neighbour's foxie, the breed you selectively defend and a foxie which made a mess of a child's leg when he decided to latch on. Admittedly the child was at fault though try telling that to the moronic parent who had the dog euthanased!

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cwt8WeSw7VoJ:forum.bullbreedsonline.com/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D34319+john+bowler+pit+bull+ban&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=au&lr=lang_en
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 30 December 2007 6:56:34 AM
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dogs don't vote, but owner's do.

"do we need them?" is a good start, now convince some pollies to stick their neck out. not easy, because a lot of dog owners don't think they have a savage dog, just a good friend who is a good burglar alarm.

so get used to losing the odd kid. not like we don't have too many already..
Posted by DEMOS, Sunday, 30 December 2007 11:08:26 AM
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I personally would still feel more comfortable having a Labrador as a family pet, (especially for families with small children), than having a Rottweiler.

When choosing a breed of dog - you have to be very selective, and consider what type of dog will meet your needs, personality, and lifestyle. For families with small children - this is especially crucial.

Rottweilers were developed in southern Germany, near the village of Rottweil. They are descended from camp dogs that followed Roman armies in their conquest of southern Europe about 1,900 years ago. The Romans used these dogs to herd the cattle and sheep that provided meat for the armies. They are an aggressive breed of dog. The Doberman pinscher developed from the Rottweiler.

However having said that, of course the responsibility of training a dog lies with the owner. And almost every dog can be trained to be obedient, reliable, and a well-adjusted companion.

The tragic incident that happened with the baby being mauled by the Rottweiler - could possibly have been prevented if the owners of the dog had kept the dog away from the vicinity of the baby.
I know that I would not have allowed the animal anywhere near my new-born, without my being present.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 30 December 2007 11:30:53 AM
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Maybe for most of us the difference is dogs are Friends, Dickie I know that is the case for you too I still read your poem about Skeeta.
Corny but true we love our dogs, I have had many breeds including German Shepard's but never seen one bite.
A wonderful Labrador is chained and very hungry not far away, why have a dog that must live its life on a chain?
And yes seen those poor woolly dogs colored red or pink? smelling like a perfume factory?
Those people should not have dogs.
Why a Rotty in a suburban back yard? status symbol? yes ! poor dog may be great gentle giant but for how long?
And kids pushing pulling dogs around while mum and dad laugh, why would tragic events not happen?
NSW press today, after the death that started this thread two more Rotty attacks one fatal.
And inspection of every dogs home and living conditions paid for by the owner is a start if less dogs kill and less live badly it may be worth it.
If a known savage dog, not breed dog hurts some one the owner should be charged eg assault or even murder.
My little dog will at worst crave attention and no one will ever be welcome to teach her to bite, her new mate arrives in 5 weeks and just maybe the mum making 3 in one home enough more than enough but no threat no chance to anyone.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 30 December 2007 3:37:39 PM
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"Country towns are full of yobos who knowingly train dogs to be aggressive toward people who come near the Ute."

What a ridiculous, unfounded claim to make. Really Belly, don’t just say crap for the sake of it. I don’t recall any of these deaths happening on or near utes, mostly in the city are’nt they?

I disagree about dog breeds, they do have their own personality traits. I own working dogs – kelpies – and they are a unique breed that behave very differently to most others.
Posted by PF, Sunday, 30 December 2007 5:26:25 PM
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I've noticed that there seems to be a current trend, or fashion, for the keeping of aggressive breeds of dogs - particularly in urban areas. Years ago one rarely encountered Rottweilers, Pit Bulls, Mastiffs, Bull Terriers etc, but it's notable that they seem increasingly popular in the inappropriate role as suburban family pet.

I agree that certain breeds have innate tendencies - indeed, many are bred for precisely that purpose. However, I also think that in the vast majority of cases it is the owner who is to blame for the dog's misdeeds. It's a bit of a cliche that dogs often resemble their owners, and you'd really have to be some kind of latently aggressive boofhead to have an attack dog as a family pet in a suburban household.

While the dog owner in this awful case deserves sympathy for the loss of their baby, they should nonetheless be prosecuted for negligently contributing to the child's death by having the bloody dog in the first place.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 30 December 2007 5:58:50 PM
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Belly, while not wishing to make light of the tragedy you reference, savage dogs did help in breaking up the criminal stranglehold of the MUA on our docks, and not before time. Just wait till Della looses the dogs on the Teachers Fed. in 6 months time, along with his lapdog, the near illiterate Cheif Educatre Michael Legg-rooter.
Posted by palimpsest, Sunday, 30 December 2007 9:34:58 PM
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I recall our old "pal" above once accusing me of being a "hater".

While I won't speculate about the motivation for the obviously mischievous attempt above to derail Belly's interesting discussion into a union-bashing exercise, one does wonder about palimpsest's consistency.

I wouldn't dignify that one with a response if I was you, Belly :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 30 December 2007 10:29:31 PM
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Morgan, I'll cherish the 29 minutes of peace between us.

I will admit to mischief for it's own sake, born out of another Belly no-brainer.

By your own hand,"it is a measure of their humanity how they treat and regard them (humans and their pets)". Care to apply your lofty wisdom to this real world situation?

Personally I find Belly's timing in raising this repugnant; and I'd rather fire a shot across his brow than moralise on this subject right now.
Posted by palimpsest, Sunday, 30 December 2007 11:26:26 PM
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Actually, old pal, I won't - but not because I'm being churlish. I was just marvelling at the unfortunate timing of my swipe at you above in the context of your collegial comments on the other pet thread :)

I won't speculate about Belly's motivation and timing for this thread either, except that I know he's a big old softy who loves his foxy.

Anyway, the very best wishes to Belly, palimpsest and everybody else for the New Year!

P.S. Loved the "29 minutes of peace" comment... I'm sure we can manage better in 2008 - 30 minutes maybe :D
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 30 December 2007 11:37:57 PM
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Palimpsest I can understand your post, it is a chance to express your pain at the position your party finds it self in.
And you may well have been looking for a chance to have a go at me.
Weak not truly amusing but if that is your best?
Dogs some people do actually use them as status symbols, why would talking about them now be a set up?
Children are dieing and remember some owners have lower IQs than their dog, what breed do you have palimpsest?
I know a nice young single mum two nice young teen age daughters two great big Rottys.
Living in the house.
New boy friend came to visit left with hole in his leg police shot 2 dogs, truth is the dogs are victims of idiot owners.
Yep big old softy but please do not think I walk away from idiots, your post was not the product of a reasonable person palimpsest.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 31 December 2007 5:44:31 AM
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After reading posts here most people ARE IN FAIRYLAND! ALL dogs have the capacity to harm. They are animals, not small humans. They do not think like us. They DO NOT THINK AT ALL! Dogs can turn on anyone or any other animal without notice, although there are circumstances where their behaviour is imminently predictable. Once again, it's hard to figure the rationale people have in defence of THEIR dog.
Posted by galah, Monday, 31 December 2007 10:17:05 AM
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From a psychological perspective a dog takes over with it's natural instinct when it's owner's(men's)instinct is missing. Another important comparison which should be looked at is criminal behavior occurring after intake of medications.If it happens to humans it can happen to animals.There follows the question:What is in the animal vaccines? If a schoolboy shooting/killing people for no apparent reason, gets now finally to be looked at in regards to medicine intake,wouldn't you look at medically induced and manipulated natural and pre-seeded behavior of animals? One would think so! Being pack animals it would be unwise to introduce a new life into the family circle and not expect the mature ones to bring the newly born up to their own level as survival machines.Look at the way adult and young animals play roughians with one another. When in distress or danger they are picked up by the neck and brought to safety. Does any dog get training how to pick up a baby by the neck? If nature takes its course does a dog know how tender a human babies neck is, and when it stops breathing after being carried away,nature tells it to shake life back into it.(we civilized take this as mauling) Did you you the smile on that dogs face being led into this van? He probably thought he did all he could to save the child. Who knows.Dogs should only be brought into a family circle as a pup after the children are born and not before, as their instinct will tell them to protect the unit/family. I'd say find that dog a new home amongst adults and support this family over the loss of their first born.A license with training to keep a dog or wild animal would be a great idea especially with young families.Happy new year to you all!

My last 2007 666 dog-bikkies worth.
Posted by eftfnc, Monday, 31 December 2007 11:02:46 AM
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Galah, the thread is about the differences in dogs, while I had made up my mind not to get into one posters head differences in breeds matters.
But it is the difference in owners that matters more.
Blues ,Shepard's, Kelpies, bully's, black and white Colly's, had them all and more never trained one to defend me.
Now my country town Utes are mid north coast ones, meditation vegetation farmers ones.
Rottys bully's pit bulls all trained to hate, more rubbish in the front of the Ute than the back, no not every Ute but too many.
Yet the ones that mostly kill live in houses or yards ask the owners, no my dog is safe they will tell you, rubbish.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 31 December 2007 11:06:37 AM
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galah, your statement is absolutely correct. to the question 'do we need savage dogs ? NO ! & neither do we need their owners. Pets, to a great %age are a reflection of their owners' mentality. I know of a 7th day advenurer religious fanatic who set his dogs onto pigs under the hypocritical pretence of ridding the bush of vermin. He actually jumped onto the pig after the dogs had mauled it to his satisfaction (& safety of course) and commenced stabbing it in a frenzy. when you see those sort of characters heading into the bush with their dogs it all becomes self-explanatory. City kept large dogs which turn on their owners or on children are quite often of a breed which is totally unsuitable as a pet. I mean Rotweilers in a flat or insufficiently large yard is a recipé for disaster. this fact is, tragically, demonstrated so often.
Posted by individual, Monday, 31 December 2007 11:18:25 AM
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Belly, I don't know much about dog breeds.
Looking around me, almost all of my neighbours have one or more dogs. While some of the neighbours are good dog owners, others seem to ignore their dogs.
No only the dogs suffer boredom, but the neighbours have to put up with a lot of barking as well.

Dogs need attention and some of our time.
The reason why I don't have a dog is because I'm not sure that I could give it all the attention a dog deserves.

I do think that there is always some danger of having a dog in the presence of small children. I'm not sure if there are any dogs that can be guaranteed to be 100% safe around children, in the same way that we can't be 100% sure that a child won't drown in a fenced, backyard pool.

This is a website that may be of interest to dog lovers with children:
"Reliability With Children
Dogs best with Children, Which dog is good for my kid?"

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/children.htm#K
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 31 December 2007 12:04:16 PM
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The Savage - Man or Beast?

http://www.maria-daines.com/music-61.html
Posted by dickie, Monday, 31 December 2007 11:28:37 PM
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Savage man or beast? dickie it is no answer but the question has an answer some times it is both are beasts.
The dead children, elderly and just unlucky remain the victims.
Dogs are not human, they should not be toys, if they are we ignore the welfare of them and for some of us the mounting victims.
We one day must confront the real issue why do we have dogs?
Some do not have them for the reasons you or I may.
Do we all have the right to own dogs?
Do we consider the life of that dog?
Surely most of us know the thread just below this one about animals bought at Christmas is fact, some are not really wanted or understood .
How will the parents of the next victim think after the dreadful event?
Remember some will say my dog is ok and never know if it truly is , others will see their dog in the back yard for not more than a few minutes a day.
The issue is not solved by asking who is the beast.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 31 December 2007 11:47:10 PM
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spot on Belly,
I think it's true that many pets are merely toys to many people. the bigger the specie the bigger the risk. pets are animals ! full stop ! animals, like all other living creatures need a degree of freedom & that includes freedom from harassment, particularly children. anyone who thinks it's ok to pester a rotweiler or a sheppard or bull terrier or whatvever mongrel better have a re-think. how often do we hear the standard defensive reply (excuse) "I'd have never thought my dog would attack somebody". well, that's part of the problem, they don't think. not ahead in particular.

May 2008 be a year we would all like to have. happy new year to all on OLO.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 10:54:41 AM
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CJ, I hope that in your role as Santa you were a little more generous than the minute of congeniality I may receive.

Belly. No mate, you don't understand my post at all. I have no party, and no pain over the Libs. loss. And I still think the waterside crack was fairly funny. And I will continue to have a dip at your side of politics and at the 'log in your eye'.

And as for my being an idiot- well, I resemble that remark!

My dog is one part foxy, one part bully, one part blue, and one part dingo. He is all heart.

And he is incredibly intelligent- runs rings around me, and quite often wags this old cur.
Posted by palimpsest, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 2:51:05 PM
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palimpsest

Just between you and I as -I know you have a sense of humour- but I wouldnt wish to upset belly who is fond of `foxys` in particluar.

This thread reminds me of a T shirt I saw on a guy the other day.

It read

' `Stamp out racism- Shoot All people.

Now I had best run before I have CJ after me. PS love the sound of your friend- Whats his or her name BTW?

Just wanted to say Happy New years to all.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 10:14:02 PM
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Palimpsest it would be strange if you and I did not engage in verbal tennis now and again.
You have my sympathy about that dog, mine is half Jack Russel half mini Foxy.
I was warned it would have too much energy and brains for me.
Please do not tell her.
Fact is we do have a problem, some do not want to address, dogs are not human, well some of them.
And some of us should not be able to own dogs.
Born in the scrub I knew about the differences human and dogs a very long time ago, I get on better with dogs than most.
But the growing list of injured and dead must be addressed.
While I too wish every poster a great new year I intend to hold myself responsible for every post, and to keep a resolution or leave the forum.
I would hope the year sees an end to posting in threads just to taunt, to switching threads directions to totally change the subject, to failing to understand free speech means we have a right to disagree.
Above all we need an understanding our ideas all of us, are not right always just because that are ours.
Pat your dog for me.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 7:23:30 AM
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Amen to that, Belly.

>>We one day must confront the real issue why do we have dogs?
Some do not have them for the reasons you or I may.
Do we all have the right to own dogs?
Do we consider the life of that dog?<<

It's a conversation we need to have.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 7:47:09 AM
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There's no such thing as "savage dogs". Only dogs that go savage. Insinuating (or stating) that a certain type of dog is typically savage is ignorant in the extreme. The owner, the training (dog and people), breeding, the 'family dynamic', and lack of understanding (ignorance) are largely responsible for incidents of tragedy.
Posted by StG, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 6:57:34 PM
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StG,
I can only agree with you, people who insist on buying dogs and having no idea as to how they will behave in later years, should have their heads read, especially when a family is being planned.

Bringing up a toddler in a home where a family pet has taken presidence and been the centre of attraction over a few years, is looking for trouble. Then there's the parents who buy a dog that resembles that of the hounds of Amityville and go leave the baby alone with the dog. It's the parents who don't have a clue!

A dog has roots, it has basic instincts, it still turns in a circle before lying down, it still tracks food from scent...

A dog can also have it's off-days, just as we do, except for the fact of it having teeth and claws. I would not approach another person in a bad mood holding a six inch blade, unless I asked a question or two before hand, he may be having a bad day!
Posted by SPANKY, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 8:47:14 PM
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We must all campaign together to make sure that killer breeds such as pit bulls, Rot weiller's etc are gradually eliminated as a breed internationally by all being desexed at birth. They are about as useful as a poisonous snake.
Posted by Bronco Lane, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 10:26:13 PM
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Certain breeds of dog get unfairly vilified by the media. Someone has an agenda and targets them specifically. Yep, Pitbulls were bred purposely for fighting. Unless you know how that dog thinks and reacts under stress I wouldn't suggest getting one. Pitbulls are a loyal, beautifully natured dog.......but they have basic instinctual habits.

The most vicious dogs I've come across are your "toy" dogs. Typically known as the yappy little sods. They would all be put down if they could do more damage. It's like blaming any ill-tempered, badly trained, inbred wild animal for 'losing it'. Unless ya know what you're doing, don't get one.
Posted by StG, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 10:28:49 PM
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St G a little bit of thought is needed, some quite wrongly brand my dog breed as yappy.
They are indeed if crossed with the Mexican breed that seems to never stop yapping.
See while your post is about slanted views of some breeds both you and I carry our biases!
Fact is pit bulls are unsafe in some hands, most in fact, they often fall into the hands of idiots who what a dog to defend them.
Rottys in some hands are bullet proof, in others dangerous.
Yes we do need to understand dogs.
We do need to ask why do we have them.
And surely we agree some should not have a dog?, some should not have some breeds?
Some breeds should be controlled?
Yappy snappy little mongrels are not my favorite, truly ,but they are driven by defense instincts to try to tell us they are huge.
Animal instincts are the basis for our problems with dogs understand that and you understand dogs.
Human instincts are the other half of the problem, why have a dog for a status symbol? my dog is bigger than yours ?
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 3 January 2008 6:09:11 AM
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Where did I say I owned a pitbull?. If that's what you're insinuating with the 'biased' comment. The rest you're echoing what I said. Can't disagree with that.
Posted by StG, Thursday, 3 January 2008 7:50:57 AM
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No need to be both nasty and wrong StG!
My remark was to say it seemed you and I held biases against small yappy dogs, I for sure do not like toys.
I further do not like people who color their dogs red or pink green or make them smell other than like a dog.
Now I did earlier say I get on well with dogs , well I do but small toys let get out of hand are not my favorite.
And I have rolled on the lawn with pit bulls and Rottys without problems.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 3 January 2008 1:43:25 PM
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