Ditch you do have an understanding of the issue, a pleasant surprise in a world intent on not seeing the differences.
After the election, if it costs me my job, I want to further talk about this issue.
It is my honestly held view extremists [and his hatred of all unions]
Bought workchoices into the mind of John Howard.
Extremists are in fact the enemy of working Australians , and non extreme unions.
The better unions should take note of that and openly untie the rope that puts them alongside such unions tied to a big rock and heading for the bottom of some sea.
Unions that do so place themselves and their members at a advantage
workplaces do not need vandals but open honest negotiation to resolve issues.
Please do not devalue some of those ex union people, such as but not only Bill Shorten review his CV on the AWU web site he is as good as any government minister.
Unions can not and will NEVER control Rudd's government.

The fact is that there is no real need for Unions today.

Unionism is a form of protectionism. Normal market forces that allow employer and employee to come to an agreement on their value to each other, are perverted. In much the same way as we believed for a long while that industrial protectionism was good for our economy and our workers, the protection of workers through unionism was a "given".

The reality is that the removal of protectionist policies in the global marketplace has been extremely beneficial to all, especially, don't forget, to the less prosperous economies. The same would be true for our workforce, if the market price was allowed to find its own level.

I have no quibble with the fact that unions have been important in the past, as a balance agent to feral and exploitative capitalism, but I have to question their value or contribution in today's working environment. The days when a corporation could hold its workers to ransom over pay and conditions are well and truly over, and it should follow that the unions are in the same position.

There are so many more rules and regulations covering what an employer can and cannot do with his workforce, that the utility of unions has to be questioned. If it is a matter of Health and Safety, we have vast reams of regulations to follow. If it is about hiring and firing, that also has never been more regulated than it is today. And there are fewer and fewer stories of corners being cut.

So maybe they have fulfilled their mission, and should be quietly put down. However, I recognize that is never easy to let go of the past, as there are a fair few who earn their livelihood through these arcane practices, both in the HR departments of the corporates, and in the ranks of union officials. Given some common sense and a few more years, though, we should all be able to see the light.

Pericles.... Did I hear you right when you say the days of employers holding workers to ranson over pay and conditions are well and truly over! Try telling nurses that.

At this very time, my privately run aged care employer is trying impose conditions that include stripping qualified workers of their professional titles and lumping us into their tidy little groups. It adds to the multitude of ambiguous clauses already offered. This very day, I am due to go into my place of employment with a resounding 'NO' on my ballot sheet.

As a qualified and hard working nurse I am sick of being insulted. Nurses need their union more than ever and yes, for protection but also and more so to help us negotiate FAIRER conditions.

So there IS a need for unions like ours. Mine is QNU. Faith in employers to the right thing just aint gonna happen mate. My employer admitted it is no longer a not for profit organisation to my face at my interview (ie wants to make money).

Employers want the bucks and I maintain that if you're not in a union, especially as a nurse the 'United we stand. Divided we fall' prevails. All power to the Victorian nurses.

Collective bargaining is the way to get pay rises and ever get ahead, if there is such thing as the latter. Sigh. Silence and non movement only condones the employers behaviour and wishes. We have to stand up and talk amongst ourselves. We deserve better.

Join your union and have a say. Your Rights At Work.

Pericles lives in a parallel virtual universe: "The fact is that there is no real need for Unions today." And this gem of social analysis: "The days when a corporation could hold its workers to ransom over pay and conditions are well and truly over..."

Go tell that to the Victorian nurses, police and teachers. Go tell it to the workers at Spotlight, at Darrell Lea, at Cowra meatworks, at Boeing, etc, etc, etc.

Go tell it to the cheap workers imported under Visa 457 arrangments.

Who was it but unions who forced John Howard to soften the the worst features of WorkChoices and then instruct his prefects that the very word WorkChoices was so 'on the nose' that they and he would stop using that term? (A rose by any other name?)

He forgot to get the message across to Nick Minchin (Finance Minister) before Minchin let the cat out of the bag about plans to introduce even more draconian IR changes to screw the workers. Yes, that's the same Minchin who admitted that most workers were 'violently opposed' to what the Government had done in IR (The Age 3/8/2006).

Howard tried to keep secret the massively harmful effects of WorkChoices but someone with a conscience - or a score to settle - leaked the Office of Employment Advocate's report that confirmed that 45% of AWAs had stripped away all of the award conditions that Howard had guaranteed were 'proected by law' under WorkChoices (Sydney Morning Herald 22/5/2007).

No need for unions, eh Perciles? Go go that to the marines.

Pericles, so which is it...unions are unnecessary because "normal market forces..allow employer and employee to come to an agreement", or because there are "so many more rules and regulations covering what an employer can and cannot do with his workforce"?
I thought "rules and regulations" prevented "normal market forces" from working properly. You can't have it both ways.

And even if normal market forces were adequate to do the job of unions in times of low unemployment, can you honestly claim they would be if a significant economic slowdown sent the unemployment rate back up again?

In one sense you are correct - the rules and regulations we have today are there *precisely* because of the actions of unions in the past, and to a large extent they are slowly becoming victims of their own success. But the most successful economies in the world still have 20-30% unionisation of their workforces, so they're a long way from dead.

OK, I'll admit there is a serious flaw in my argument.

Where the "employer" is also the government, all bets are off. They are quite simply incompetent to run anything, so my apologies to nurses, police, teachers.

But wizofaus, that's weak.

>>I thought "rules and regulations" prevented "normal market forces" from working properly. You can't have it both ways.<<

Not so. Rules and regulations are simply a standard part of doing business, and are taken into account when you set up shop. That is why I mentioned them in the vein of how well the unions have done in the past, turning unbalanced business practices into workers' rights.

But to specifics.

>>Go tell it to the workers at Spotlight, at Darrell Lea, at Cowra meatworks, at Boeing, etc, etc, etc.<<

Spotlight, FrankGol? You know as well as I do that Spotlight adhered to the absolute letter of Howard's Workplace Legislation. Only to be scuppered by the same Prime Minister's "fairness test" backflip, which was simply a tacked-on attempt to put lipstick on the pig. I have no more sympathy for Howard's IR policies than you do, and the re-unionisation of the agreements has been notable for its brokering by a "pragmatic person willing to consider commercial interests".

http://blogs.news.com.au/news/blogocracy/index.php/news/comments/spotlight

No-one is suggesting that forcing workers to sign agreements, as in the case of Darrell Lea, is equitable use of market forces. It was the Government Ombudsman, I believe, who sorted out that bit of unpleasantness.

Cowra Meatworks closed down, following the union's "stand" against the sacking of 29 people, and the attempted re-hiring of 20. Big victory.

As for Boeing, the vast majority were unaffected by the long-running union dispute - which I presume you are referring to - that involved only a handful of employees. One thing is certain, Boeing in Seattle will search far and wide before giving any more work to Williamstown. Another big victory.

I am not, I repeat, a defender of Howard's IR policies, which are as divisive and anti-business as they appear to be anti-worker. But unions themselves are, I'm afraid, past their use-by date.