Hi Indy,

As a spiteful hater, I expect nothing less from YOU. The idea that jail is some luxury hotel is garbage. If there is a chance at rehabilitation, then education is one avenue, but as a spiteful hater, YOU would take sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain on people. It has nothing to do with the criminal, but everything to do with YOU wanting self gratification by seeing others suffering. Since YOU hide where YOU came from, I suspect it involved Nazi collaboration.

then education is one avenue,
Paul1405,
You mean like to "education" that produced your mentality ?

No way ttbn,
They let those little shites out on bail that gang bashed that shopkeeper? you're kidding me.
They should all be up on manslaugher, and if it were me, there wouldn't be a single one in that group of 7 that gets off with anything less than juvenile detention just for being a part of the team and even if they didn't actually take part, and even if it makes them all worse.
Someone died, and no-ones getting off with a warning!

Remember when the punishments were to 'set an example' of what happens when you do the wrong thing in order to prevent others from doing the same thing.

If it does make them worse, then I'll leave it up to Paul to produce a custom tailored solution real fast, but I'm still going with Indy's theme here.

"There's only one effective deterrent & that is punishment !"
- We have to, or they will just do worse things anyway, won't they?

What happens when one of these little shites does something again whilst out on bail to stick their finger up at 'consequences', and then even after that they'll still get a slap on the wrist and they'll still go and do the same kind of stupid stuff again!

Is Paul saying 'Punishment makes them worse'?
And that we shouldn't punish them at all?
Or that networking with other petty wannabe street tuffs in juvenile detention teaches them how to be worse?
The country seems to need a solution really fast.
Many kids and young teens are running amok.

Hi AC,

ttbn, is not telling the whole story.

"In crime-rife Victoria, four youths allegedly involved in the death of a 60 year old shopkeeper have been let out on bail, despite “serious charges against them”.

This is a very serious matter, The Primary Suspect: A 15-year-old boy is accused of throwing Mr Truong to the ground. His charges were upgraded to manslaughter, and he remains remanded in custody.

A 12-year-old boy, a 13-year-old boy, and two 14-year-old girls were granted bail. They face serious charges including affray, violent disorder, and intentionally causing serious injury. (Note: Victoria Police indicated that charges against the 13-year-old boy were subsequently withdrawn after further investigation exonerated him). Prosecutors did not oppose bail for the two 14-year-old girls, telling the court they posed "no unacceptable risk" to community safety.

Did the court act appropriately in this, only by being privy to the brief of evidence, and having a degree of legal understanding can that be determined.

As I said, I don't have the answers to juvenile crime, I don't think anyone has the complete answer. The punitive response in Queensland of "Adult crime, adult time", has thus far failed to reduce such crime. It has had the effect of increasing the numbers in detention, without a corresponding reduction in offending.

Is Paul saying 'Punishment makes them worse'?
And that we shouldn't punish them at all?

If punishment is simply used to inflict the maximum amount of "pain", and it is applied in the wrong environment, it can make soft criminals into harden criminals. There has to be consequences for actions, in the form of punishment, agree. I also think measures to prevent juvenile offending in the first instance, would be more effective, than harsh punitive action after the event

Paul tells me that "Your Dodge City American research is not relevant to Australia. "..... and then proceeds to provide what he thinks is evidence from (you guessed it)...American research. Seriously, what a dill.

"No doubt YOU support capital punishment, unrestricted gun ownership, along with vigilantism. " Oh good, we are now at the point where Paul realises he's on a hiding to nothing and decides to start making up my opinions and telling me how wrong I am to think things I never said. We'll soon arrive at the time when Paul decides his best bet is to exit, stage left.... http://youtu.be/wa6k_in6cv4?t=13.

"National Academy of Sciences reviewed decades of data and concluded there is no credible statistical evidence that the death penalty affects murder rates."

Well I didn't say anything about murder rates, but when you're on a hiding to nothing....

"Research compiled by the National Institute of Justice shows that longer prison sentences do not effectively reduce overall crime rates or stop future offences."

NIJ is one of those American research groups Paul thinks isn't relevant to Australia except when they are. This'll go over Paul's head, but the issue is that people in prison can't commit crime, at least not against the general public. Seems logical, which is why Paul can't see it.

Whether higher penalties cause people to not commit crime, or as much crime, is a matter of dispute. But what is beyond dispute is that most crime is committed by a small percentage of any population, and that if members of that group are off the streets, they can't commit crimes.

What is also very clear from the research is that recidivism rates among that group is high and that, keeping them off the streets where-ever possible is good for society.

I get that Paul is vastly more concerned about the welfare of the criminal than the welfare of the victims, but most of us aren't that naive.

AC

Short of people who actually care going directly to their MPs, judges are going to continue being the arrogant, useless slack-arses that they are. But, as I said recently elsewhere, only 10% of Australian voters do this. Just voting every three or four years has never made any difference. Australia is well and truly rooted under the uniparty, aided by apathetic voters who don't really appreciate democracy. They won't appreciate it until it is gone - which it will be not too far down the track: probably with the next few years if we get another Albanese government or, indeed the other branch of the uniparty, which is also interested only in itself, not Australia or Australians who, as I just said, don't seem to care anyway.