Among One Nation's policies to be released at the end of this month is the problem of growing crime in Australia, and cracking down on “bleeding heart” judges, who would be made “more accountable” for the sentences that they hand down. As we all know, many judges fail community standards, and it should be possible to get rid of them.

Pauline Hanson particularly referred to the lack of safety in Victoria. A system is needed for judges to be removed if they do not hand down sentences that reflect community standards. An independent board to deal with the judge problem should be set up, she said. Judges must be held accountable.

"An independent board to deal with the judge problem should be set up, she said."

And who would hold the independent board accountable?

Contact: onenation.org.au

Unfortunately, the Judiciary has been politicised long ago. The putrid mob in Victoria gaoled Pell for political reasons. I am no fan of Catholic church but this mob are as putrid as Andrews. They rule in favour of blokes in dresses in girls changerooms and constantly let violent offenders back into the community.

Hi Trumpster,

Naturally the "independent" board would be accountable to the "independent" Pauline. Since the untimely demise of the Fuhrer I do believe Judge Freisler of the Peoples Court is available. No namby-pamby nonsense with Judge Freisler, a bit of piano wire around the neck, does wonders for the guilty.

These extremist like Hanson simply wont courts to act as they want them to. Hanson would determine guilt without evidence, then impose the harshest sentence they could think of. AND the likes of ttbn who determines peoples guilt based on a 30 second news grab, would be cheering from the peanut gallery. Again more populist clap-trap.

Shows how stupid these fools are, a tenets of Australia's liberal democracy is the separation of powers. Government authority is divided into three independent branches legislative, executive, and judiciary to prevent the abuse of power, by political extremists like Hanson. BTW, the judges these fools are taking about, the ones that don't toe the One Nation political line, are criminal court judges, which in the vast majority of matters are under State jurisdiction, not federal.

I think that ttbn's right in this case Paul.
A lot of out of control young people destroying whole rural towns where police pretense in minimal.
Laws need to be changed, if kids are doing crime and the punishment isn't tough enough that they laugh at the courts and go strait back out to commit the exact crime again, then things need to change.

It's not like these kids are just drinking alcohol or smoking weed or pinching stuff from the local shops, they're armed and attacking vulnerable people in their own homes and getting away with it.

"Since the untimely demise of the Fuhrer I do believe Judge Freisler of the Peoples Court is available. No namby-pamby nonsense with Judge Freisler, a bit of piano wire around the neck, does wonders for the guilty."

Why is that when Paul's got nothing useful to say he says it in the voice of a psychotic 7 year old?

I'm not against holding judges to account. Its long overdue. I just don't see how setting up yet another government body will make the slightest difference. Inevitably these boards become the creature of the left and end up existing to protect the judges with the 'correct' views and to prosecute those who indulge in wrong-think.

Conquest's second law of politics....
"Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing. "

Rather than set a body, just make judges term limited. After, say, 5 years, they get turfed but can be reappointed by the relevant government. Additionally, any judge that has three or more judgements overturned or materially altered in that 5 year period is ineligible for reappointment. Finally, if criminal that a judge allows out on parole or bail, commits a crime whole on bail, the judge can be sued by the victims.

Then we'll have some real accountability.

Hi AC,

Politicians have the power to make laws, and set minimum sentences etc, sentences can also be appealed. The type of offences that are being talked about here, are mostly state criminal matters. A so called independent (political) board with the power to sack judges, would not pass the High Court. The LNP in Queensland has introduced a catchy slogan "Adult Crime Adult Time" for youth offending, so far the evidence shows an increase in detention, particularly in watch houses, with no evidence of a reduction in crime. Young people exposed to adult criminals, tend to be worse offenders upon release. The problem is far more complex, and can't be solved with a simple, "throw away the key" mentality. Is there a solution to what is a growing problem, no one has came up with a decent answer yet.

Singapore just displays the total dishonesty and foolishness of every leftist dogma and lie that they regurgitate daily. Many ngo's especially in Indigenous communities would be out of work if they did the work they are paid to do.

Hi Paul,
5 minutes after posting the previous comment I saw this.

Good Samaritan not expected to survive youth gang attack
http://youtu.be/JYYH5wJB5CY
Just sick of hearing about this kind of stuff.

"A 13-year-old boy has been bailed, but police are urging the court to keep the three others behind bars, saying the community would be outraged if they were freed"

If police are urging the courts not to give them bail, then already the system is broken.

From your comment:
"So far the evidence shows an increase in detention, particularly in watch houses, with no evidence of a reduction in crime."
- Keep locking up more of them then until there is a reduction in violent crime.

"Young people exposed to adult criminals, tend to be worse offenders upon release."
- Maybe but if so just send them back.

"The problem is far more complex, and can't be solved with a simple , 'throw away the key' mentality."
- Allowing little crim kids to get slaps on the wrist and laugh and keep doing wose things isn't working anyway.

The question is do you wan to protect the innocent, or the guilty?

When these kids hurt someone, and get a slap on the wrist, and then hurt another person, whose fault is the second person?

Ours because we obviously didn't punish them enough the first time to make them think twice about going ahead with it the second time.

You talk about separation of the judicial system, well these kids play the system to their advantage.
As long as they do that and think they are in control we may as well not even have a judicial system.

'Done for notoriety among their peers'

I saw 7 kids walking away together at the end of the video.
I think every single one of them should be charged, the entire group.
The judicial system needs to send a message 'enough is enough'.

Or else yes, they should be fired.

Hi Trumpster,

"Finally, if (a) criminal that a judge allows out on parole or bail, commits a crime whole (sic) on bail, the judge can be sued by the victims."

YOU come up with some dumb ideas at times, but that's one of your best. Why are you extremists so fond of locking people up? On that bit of nonsense, firstly YOU want a judge to assume a person (calling them a criminal) is guilty without hearing the evidence. Why don't YOU just give a judge a crystal ball, so they can look into the future.

Hi AC,

I understand community anger and frustration with crime, the idea that police are tasked with opposing bail, is a good one.

"make them think twice about going ahead with it the second time" I don't believe they think in the first place, let alone a second time. The Northern Territory has the highest incarceration rate in Australia, five times the national average, it also has the highest per capita crime rate in Australia. Proof as if we needed it, that simply locking people up doesn't reduce the crime rate. Punitive action after the event, is very expensive it costs around $150k per jail inmate in Australia. People who have been incarcerated previous have a 45% instance of returning to prison within two years of release. The possibility of a person who has never been in prison, being incarcerated within the next two years is less than one percent. So much for jail being a deterrent.

"YOU come up with some dumb ideas at times, but that's one of your best. "

Well Paul, if you think its dumb, that just proves I'm on the money.

You're assuming that suing is the same as proving. If a judge releases someone who commits an offence and can show that i was reasonable to think they wouldn't offend, then the judge will have no problem with the lawsuit.

The problem at the moment is that judges and psychologists and various do-gooder organisation get the warm inner-glow of releasing people back into the community without the slightest concern for the consequences if the decision to release ends up costing others.

Hi Trumpster,

What can I say about such clap trap.

"If a judge releases someone who commits an offence and can show that i was reasonable to think they wouldn't offend, then the judge will have no problem with the lawsuit." (But I think he has a problem with YOU).

Why are YOU involved? What, YOU decide what is reasonable! This is ridiculous! YOU are suffering from Trump delusional syndrome, YOU are definitely delusional. Please get off the sauce before its too late!

I do not see strong 'sentences' as punishment.
Being harsh does not guarantee a useful result.
When the guilt of a person has been established, it is often necessary to separate that person from the rest of society.
Both to protect society, and with a view to changing or rehabilitating that person.
These are both expensive undertakings, and rarely successful.
The last time I looked at the costs involved, I was horrified.
Can we continue to incarcerate those guilty of crimes which are not of violence?
Does the monetary cost of doing so far outweigh any benefit?
What we really need is a far more efficient way of dealing with those unable to adhere to community standards and the law.
One that doesn't cost us the earth.
We cannot just send them 'down under' anymore.
'down under' has two meanings here.
But I doubt we will find a way.
I suppose 'lenient' judges are mindful of the cost of incarceration, and lean toward alternatives?

I omitted to emphasise that no one should be 'punished' for being the way they are.
And no amount of 'harshness' will change them.
But we do need to separate some law-breakers from mainstream society.
Largely to protect society.

Hi Ipso Fatso,

I agree, there is no simple solution to the problem of crime. Taking a lock em' up and throw away the key approach doesn't work. That has been tried the world over, without success. Australia was founded on such a system, the problem was systemic within British society, and not simply thousands of mostly poor people, turning to crime for no reason.

BTW, Judges don't have a free hand in imposing sentences, the penalties are set by law makers. The cost to keep a person in jail for a year is about $150K in Australia. One worrying aspect is the fact that about 45% of people going to jail, return to jail within two years, reform in prison is not of a great success rate.

"I suppose 'lenient' judges are mindful of the cost of incarceration, and lean toward alternatives?" One problem is some people draw their conclusion about guilt or innocence, sentences etc, based on a thirty second news grab at 6pm, while being totally ignorant of the complex facts of the matter, as are judges.

Just recently I was dealing with a young bloke, who was arrested about a year ago, at a logistics warehouse, on a Sunday morning. The police brief was concerning the importation of drugs. This bloke was a forklift driver, about six people were arrested at the time, everyone working the shift. His family had to find $50K for bail, he lost his job, was sick with worry. It turned out the police finally admitted he was not involved, and they had simply arrested everyone there on suspicion, they dropped the charges against the young bloke, and several others. This incident has played havoc with the life of a completely innocent person. He couldn't find a job, due to suspicion created, he was sick with worry etc. Thankfully with help from a good organisation he has now found a job, with a lot less pay than before. and is now trying to get back to normal.

"Why are YOU involved? What, YOU decide what is reasonable! This is ridiculous! YOU are suffering from Trump delusional syndrome, YOU are definitely delusional. Please get off the sauce before its too late!"

There's nothing like a fact laden, thought provoking response AND that was nothing like a fact laden, thought provoking response. Just screaming that you don't want it to be true, therefore it isn't true, isn't a good look.

"Taking a lock em' up and throw away the key approach doesn't work. That has been tried the world over, without success. "

That's just rubbish and we should all note that not a single bit of evidence is supplied to support this know-nothing assertion.

In fact, there is ample evidence that removing criminals from society reduces crime rates. Gee, if the criminal is behind bars they can't commit offences. Who da thunk it?

eg "The Effect of Prison Population Size on Crime Rates (1996) Levitt et al. "showed that a one-prisoner reduction in incarceration was associated with roughly 15 additional Index (serious) crimes per year."

"Studies of Truth-in-Sentencing laws (requiring violent offenders to serve a large share of their sentences) have found statistically significant declines in both violent and property crime in adopting states, with quicker effects on murder and robbery" in the US states compared to those who didn't adopt such laws.

Best recent figures (eg Bushway et al) cluster around 2–5 serious crimes averted per year of prison on average. Earlier estimates were often higher (15–20).

There's more than enough evidence to show that incarceration works in protecting the wider community. But I suspect many aren't interested in the evidence but are chasing the warm inner-glow of (misplaced) compassion.

Hi Judge Trumpster,

Your Dodge City American research is not relevant to Australia. No doubt YOU support capital punishment, unrestricted gun ownership, along with vigilantism. National Academy of Sciences reviewed decades of data and concluded there is no credible statistical evidence that the death penalty affects murder rates.
Research compiled by the National Institute of Justice shows that longer prison sentences do not effectively reduce overall crime rates or stop future offences.

People committing crimes rarely weigh the future length of a sentence against their immediate actions. Extra years in prison does little to change a persons behaviour on release. Long confinement removes people from regular jobs and family, which can actually increase the chance they commit crimes again.

Since I've shown how stupid your "lock up the Judges" nonsense is, YOU have retreated to some 30 year old American rubbish, which fails every conceivable test on crime and punishment.

Criminals don't get enough time, if any, in the Big House because this government prefers fines to increase their spending money. The squillions in fines they promise for anyone not obeying the Censor in “protecting” children online is just one indicator of the Albanese's lust for money as opposed to their slack-arsed attitude to crime and safety and their unwillingness to insist that judges get scum off the streets.

There is a fine for everything.

If you lie on the census form (not sure how they can pick a lie); or if you choose to skip filling it in, you could be fined up to $3,640. Not $3,600, not $3,650 - but $3,640.

Of course they need to pay the 30,000 extra casual staff ‘required’ to carry out this intrusion into our lives.

I've filled in quite a few census forms in my life, and don't know why. Everything seems to have got worse no matter what information you give the vultures.

Not all countries have a census, and civilised countries like Denmark and Finland no longer do a physical census; they do continuous checks ‘in-house’, making public servants useful, not threatening to fine the plebs for not doing a job that our vast public service is apparently not capable of doing.

Threaten and fine is the way for Australia. We are also fined if we don't vote, unlike 99.9% of countries.

In crime-rife Victoria, four youths allegedly involved in the death of a 60 year old shopkeeper have been let out on bail, despite “serious charges against them”.

The dead man is Van Viet Truong. No multiculturalist sentiments or different treatment: teenage boys and a girl are out on bail, charged with affray, violent disorder, intentionally causing serious injury, and intentionally causing injury . A 15 year old boy charged with manslaughter is still locked up. For how long is the automatic question.

No murder charges because the victim died in hospital. WTF!

The accused were shoplifting in the victim's shop, and he had the cheek to protest, and got beaten up.

Taking a lock em' up and throw away the key approach doesn't work.
Paul1405,
On that one I agree with you. It is no punishment to regret their actions when they have ten times better conditions in those 4 Star motels erroneously called Jails. Education, physical exercise, three meals a day, TV, internet, visitors, fresh bed sheets every few days etc etc. That is not punishment, that is privilege that honest wage earners can only dream about. Some of these jailed actually walk out with Uni degrees & as qualified Lawyers. They're laughing all the way thanks to incompetent bureaucrats whose only interest is their Superannuation account.
Real punishment must cause immense regret not some tolerable inconvenience in utter comfort.
Priority one in any crime must be compensating the victim. The perpetrator should have to work it off at standard wages & if necessary, the family should have to chip in as well. Not sitting in front of a computer or spending time in the Gym, work during time in Jail will do far more than the present system. There's only one effective deterrent & that is punishment !

Hi Indy,

As a spiteful hater, I expect nothing less from YOU. The idea that jail is some luxury hotel is garbage. If there is a chance at rehabilitation, then education is one avenue, but as a spiteful hater, YOU would take sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain on people. It has nothing to do with the criminal, but everything to do with YOU wanting self gratification by seeing others suffering. Since YOU hide where YOU came from, I suspect it involved Nazi collaboration.

then education is one avenue,
Paul1405,
You mean like to "education" that produced your mentality ?

No way ttbn,
They let those little shites out on bail that gang bashed that shopkeeper? you're kidding me.
They should all be up on manslaugher, and if it were me, there wouldn't be a single one in that group of 7 that gets off with anything less than juvenile detention just for being a part of the team and even if they didn't actually take part, and even if it makes them all worse.
Someone died, and no-ones getting off with a warning!

Remember when the punishments were to 'set an example' of what happens when you do the wrong thing in order to prevent others from doing the same thing.

If it does make them worse, then I'll leave it up to Paul to produce a custom tailored solution real fast, but I'm still going with Indy's theme here.

"There's only one effective deterrent & that is punishment !"
- We have to, or they will just do worse things anyway, won't they?

What happens when one of these little shites does something again whilst out on bail to stick their finger up at 'consequences', and then even after that they'll still get a slap on the wrist and they'll still go and do the same kind of stupid stuff again!

Is Paul saying 'Punishment makes them worse'?
And that we shouldn't punish them at all?
Or that networking with other petty wannabe street tuffs in juvenile detention teaches them how to be worse?
The country seems to need a solution really fast.
Many kids and young teens are running amok.

Hi AC,

ttbn, is not telling the whole story.

"In crime-rife Victoria, four youths allegedly involved in the death of a 60 year old shopkeeper have been let out on bail, despite “serious charges against them”.

This is a very serious matter, The Primary Suspect: A 15-year-old boy is accused of throwing Mr Truong to the ground. His charges were upgraded to manslaughter, and he remains remanded in custody.

A 12-year-old boy, a 13-year-old boy, and two 14-year-old girls were granted bail. They face serious charges including affray, violent disorder, and intentionally causing serious injury. (Note: Victoria Police indicated that charges against the 13-year-old boy were subsequently withdrawn after further investigation exonerated him). Prosecutors did not oppose bail for the two 14-year-old girls, telling the court they posed "no unacceptable risk" to community safety.

Did the court act appropriately in this, only by being privy to the brief of evidence, and having a degree of legal understanding can that be determined.

As I said, I don't have the answers to juvenile crime, I don't think anyone has the complete answer. The punitive response in Queensland of "Adult crime, adult time", has thus far failed to reduce such crime. It has had the effect of increasing the numbers in detention, without a corresponding reduction in offending.

Is Paul saying 'Punishment makes them worse'?
And that we shouldn't punish them at all?

If punishment is simply used to inflict the maximum amount of "pain", and it is applied in the wrong environment, it can make soft criminals into harden criminals. There has to be consequences for actions, in the form of punishment, agree. I also think measures to prevent juvenile offending in the first instance, would be more effective, than harsh punitive action after the event

Paul tells me that "Your Dodge City American research is not relevant to Australia. "..... and then proceeds to provide what he thinks is evidence from (you guessed it)...American research. Seriously, what a dill.

"No doubt YOU support capital punishment, unrestricted gun ownership, along with vigilantism. " Oh good, we are now at the point where Paul realises he's on a hiding to nothing and decides to start making up my opinions and telling me how wrong I am to think things I never said. We'll soon arrive at the time when Paul decides his best bet is to exit, stage left.... http://youtu.be/wa6k_in6cv4?t=13.

"National Academy of Sciences reviewed decades of data and concluded there is no credible statistical evidence that the death penalty affects murder rates."

Well I didn't say anything about murder rates, but when you're on a hiding to nothing....

"Research compiled by the National Institute of Justice shows that longer prison sentences do not effectively reduce overall crime rates or stop future offences."

NIJ is one of those American research groups Paul thinks isn't relevant to Australia except when they are. This'll go over Paul's head, but the issue is that people in prison can't commit crime, at least not against the general public. Seems logical, which is why Paul can't see it.

Whether higher penalties cause people to not commit crime, or as much crime, is a matter of dispute. But what is beyond dispute is that most crime is committed by a small percentage of any population, and that if members of that group are off the streets, they can't commit crimes.

What is also very clear from the research is that recidivism rates among that group is high and that, keeping them off the streets where-ever possible is good for society.

I get that Paul is vastly more concerned about the welfare of the criminal than the welfare of the victims, but most of us aren't that naive.

AC

Short of people who actually care going directly to their MPs, judges are going to continue being the arrogant, useless slack-arses that they are. But, as I said recently elsewhere, only 10% of Australian voters do this. Just voting every three or four years has never made any difference. Australia is well and truly rooted under the uniparty, aided by apathetic voters who don't really appreciate democracy. They won't appreciate it until it is gone - which it will be not too far down the track: probably with the next few years if we get another Albanese government or, indeed the other branch of the uniparty, which is also interested only in itself, not Australia or Australians who, as I just said, don't seem to care anyway.

To be fair to the voters I call apathetic, I probably should recognise that the deterioration in the Australian economy; the lowering standard of living that policies on climate and other government interventions wreaked upon them by Albanese, might be taking their minds off unchecked crime unless it directly affects them.

Hi Judge Trumpster,

When do YOU take up your appointment as the "Judge of Judges", which YOU posted, that you would be ideally suited to such a exalted position. BTW I had to fix your grammar and incorrect word choice in that post. Me thinks YOU were drunk at the time, I'll excuse YOU in that case, but don't let it happen again!

Given your zest for everything Trumpian, I thought that YOU would naturally be in favour of capital punishment, unrestricted gun ownership and vigilantism.

You said; " Gee, if the criminal is behind bars they can't commit offences. Who da thunk it? Hummm, drunk again Who da thunk it? Why behind bars, how about the noose, firing squad, gas chamber, electric chair, the block & axe, the guillotine...messy, but effective, a small version for children who play up. Great deterrents especially if applied for all crime, and first offence! No jails required, just crematories!

I can see it now, gangs of Trumpster vigilantes, rounding up, murderers, rapists, jaywalkers, children who don't eat their Cornflakes, bring them before Judge Trumpster for the sentence of execution! Crime solved!

YOU were the one who rushed off and got American rubbish to post, I responded with counter material from America. I did say it wasn't relevant to Australia. I did point to the recent Queensland experience of "Adult crime, adult time" as not being effective as intended. Say something about that, not posting clap trap from your home state of Alabama!

I don't think we should 'punish' anybody, at any time, ever!
We must not resort to barbaric action, ever.
No thumbscrews or 'racks' are needed, ever.
But we must protect ourselves from those born with a less than beneficial approach to our society.
We must separate them from us.
For serious crimes this means their incarceration.
Those who have less serious infringements must work to pay for any damage they have caused.
This could be in an 'enclosed' setting.
As we become a more affluent society, the 'easy-pickings' increase.
This encourages those with that less than beneficial intent.
Wealth is all around them, and they can steal with greater ease.
So the problem appears to be partly our affluence.
But also, there are those whose natural intent is harmful.
They are born that way, and mostly have no conscience.
We cannot readily change the way their minds are programmed.
So we continue to 'mop up' after the serial killers and those who steal with violence.
It is a pity we cannot identify those without conscience when they are still young.
Perhaps then we could devise a way to protect ourselves from them.

It'll be of National Interest how the Judges who will be dealing with the Youths who killed that Vietnamese shopkeeper will come to a conclusion regarding punishment !

Hard to follow the logic of some of the more extreme on this forum. ttbn brings up the tragedy of the shocking death of Van Viet Truong in Melbourne. Mr. Truong was a Vietnamese refugee, and from all accounts a decent Australian.

Hi Indy,

Fortunately we have a judiciary that is impartial, and guilt and innocence is determined after a detailed examination of the evidence. If found guilty then the penalty imposed is determined by the judge in accordance with the law. What do YOU want?

I understand community outrage, when things like this happen, but if guilty was simply determined by community outrage, then a lot of innocent people would be hanged.

I have from time to time something to do with young people, and the problems of life they get into. Truly many never have a chance, they grow up in a totally dysfunctional "family" and its all downhill from there.

dysfunctional "family"
Paul1405,
Many such families are brought to this stage by mostly outside influences. Parents aren't allowed to discipline children, financial pressures such as rent, registrations, rising costs in free-fall, insurance stress & etc etc. Most of such costs aren't really comprehended by the average securely employed Public Servant hence the decisions made by them impacting so severely on low income families as to cause severe stress which the ignorant refer to as dysfunctional !
Actually dysfunctional families are neglected by way of relevant authorities not addressing the problems until it is way too late. Of course there are people who are by nature recalcitrant & generally disruptive & uncivilised who cause stress to neighbours & the community yet the authorities are traditionally dragging their feet. Police aren't allowed to act as they should & Magistrates are tough on those making a mall mistake & handle real troublemakers with kids gloves. To get back on parallel running rails we cannot get away from the fact that a national Service is desperately needed to restore society ! Only then can the troublemakers learn to adopt a more caring & responsible attitude ! Those in authority now could do evening classes in integrity to star the ball rolling !

Hi Indy,

I don't know what experience you have with delinquent children, but I have some, both in Sydney and Brisbane. Most, 80%-90% come from what I would call dysfunction backgrounds.

You claim; "Parents aren't allowed to discipline children" When I say dysfunctional background, I mean there is virtually no home life to begin with, what there is, is a shocker anyway. What little childhood some kids have. A life of instability, drugs, violence, poverty, in and out of institutions from as young as 12. The only "family" some kids know, is the mob they hang out with, which they prefer to the so called parent(s). Anti social behaviour begins at a very early age, the progress through, drugs, crime and violence is rapid, by 18 they're ready for adult prison, and a future life of crime.

Hi Paul,
I know a few kids like that, aged around 11, and heading directly toward jail.
They think they know better and can fight the whole world and win.
They can't be told, they will have to learn the hard way.
So I say 'Bring on the hard way' already.

I also know and care about other kids, good kids, who are the victims of these bad kids.
And this is the important point.
I don't want the good kids I care about bullied and mistreated and turning into bad kids themselves because other people raise little monsters who will not change until they've hurt enough people and learned regret the hard way, and well - when you're dealing with toxic teenage narcissists, it might be a few decades of harming others before they come to their senses, if ever.

I don't agree with smacking kids, certainly not as a standard go to punishment, but these kids have gone too far and examples need to be set.
Lets just save all the harm done to innocent kids and innocent people and punish these kids properly. Parents had no problem smacking me as a kid when I did the wrong thing, and the school had no problems pulling out the cane when I messed around at school.

You can't say you don't know you're doing the wrong thing when you attack people in their own homes with machetes so if the punishment was a public flogging, they'd deserve it.

You think I'm wrong but that Vietnamese bloke would still be alive, his wife and kids would still have a husband and father.

I understand your sadness surrounding the plight of the monster kids.
It wasn't really their fault either but your feelgood bs isn't working.
You need to produce a solution that kept that Vietnamese bloke alive.

I'm sure harsher punishments will actually reduce the total harm being done currently.

Paul1405,
take note of what Armchair Critic says. Dysfunction derives from a countless number of issues however, the most direct cause is lack of discipline & anyone denying that is simply in no position to even comment. Yes, dysfunctional parents & that includes the middle class career parents, are the basis of drug abuse, crime etc. Just look at the idiocy that are tattoos & piercings ! No functional parent will allow a minor to make that decision & tattooists who disfigure minors should be charged heavily as those who provide alcohol & cigarettes to minors. Who is to blame for much of such dysfunction ? You guessed it, Child welfare & other family support groups starting with Kindy & pre-school. Another devastatingly irresponsible group are the free to air Tv programmers. Where are the Government officers who are supposed to keep an eye on society ? They're glued to computer screens denouncing Pauline & Trump & spending all day of social media instead of working ! All that has to change, we need those in charge to held accountable & to achieve that there's only one way, Discipline & responsibility. i.e. A national Service !

Like... where are all these so called experts when you actually need them?
All these people who the government help have University degrees and specialise in this area.
Where are their solutions?

You could argue that between the entire lot of them that all they've manages to foster is a basket-case of a system, if you take in the bigger picture.

You have shite kids becoming parents themselves and raising even shiteier kids, and it's not these kids fault they're born into toxic environments and unfairness from the start, or that they grow up with chips on their shoulders and resentment for everything and a 'I don't care about anything' attitude, and that becomes their charter and life moving forward, but knowing this doesn't change the problem of the harm they end up doing to others.

If we can't even protect and defend the good kids and innocent people and create real deterrents to prevent kids going down the bad path, then what hope is there for a better system?
I understand that a better system might include education, and adult mentoring, and an opportunity for these kids to choose for themselves something better as well as serious punishment.
But if accept things the way they are we'd just be accepting this current situation as being 'the best we can do'.
And it's not really good enough, we need solutions, not feelgood crap that isn't getting results.

The "lock em' up, and throw away the key", approach is not working. The number of children in juvenile detention has increased by 10% since 2021 to new record levels. 80% of those children have not been sentenced, due to a severe backlog within the court system. The lock em' up, and throw away the key approach might make some in society feel good, and its politically appealing, but there is no evidence it does anything to reduce the level of crime among juveniles. By concentrating on punishment after the fact, is both costly and self defeating.
"But if accept things the way they are we'd just be accepting this current situation as being 'the best we can do'.And it's not really good enough, we need solutions, not feelgood crap that isn't getting results."
The evidence is the feelgood crap, is not leniency on juveniles, but a concentration on a punishment system that is not working.

The punishment system isn't working because there really isn't any serious punishment.
The kids laugh and play the system to their advantage with no real deterrent and it only encourages them to move up the crime ranks from petty stealing and abuse (the middle finger to authority) to threats and violence with weapons to improve their own street credit with all the other crim-kids.

If you don't stop them stealing from shops, next they're stealing cars and running over people.
If you don't stop them from robbing shops next they're running back to attack and kill the owner for daring to stand up to them and defend his livelihood.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Paul.
I'm happy to embrace some kind of system that balances a constructive path alongside a punishment path.
I'm not being inflexible, I'm just saying that there needs to be a real deterrent and you can only achieve that with real punishment.

If they think they can play the system and win, then the system isn't working and we are not in control.
We're adults, they're kids, find out whatever it is they hate the most, and make them do that.

it is beyond me how people can say something is not working when it hasn't actually been implemented !

Hi AC,

The best one I've come across in recent history, is a employment/apprenticeship based program in the catering industry. The group came to the charity the wife and I volunteer with, about 20 young people, they donated around 200 professionally packaged frozen meals, done in a proper commercial kitchen, they did all the work themselves, they were so proud of what they are achieving. With the group were a couple of mentors who had been there done that, including jail time, rough nuts, who have turned the page themselves, and now they are working with these kids. The boss guy, is tough, I could see that, a no nonsense approach. All I can say is the kids in the program, were terrific, well spoken, polite, responsible, knowledgeable, some in their 4th year. The group is mostly self managed, the Group Leader, a lad about 17, delivered an excellent well presented speech, and there was a great mingle after, that told us why they have an 80%+ success rate, with a holistic approach that starts early and is aimed at the person, built on success through achievement, that covers everything in their lives, accommodation, employment, any help they need. There are other programs in other areas, doing the same sort of thing, but finance is always the problem. This group has 20 involved, given the right backing it could handle a 100, add in other programs that number would be 1,000 at probably a quarter of the cost of the present system. One thing is individuals and businesses are willing to chip in for this kind of thing, but they wont give a penny to build Youth Detention Centres, which cost the taxpayer tens' of millions.

What Paul1405 describes is one of the many activities a well thought out National Service could include in a Gap Year term.

"Why behind bars, how about the noose, firing squad, gas chamber, electric chair, the block & axe, the guillotine..."

Still make up my views for me, Paul?

I understand. When you can't deal with my actual views and can't find a valid way to handle them, just make up new views and then pretend to attack them.

Standard Paul. It always happens when he realises his fondest beliefs are rubbish.

Hi Trumpster!

YOU bleeding heart liberals are all the same, namby-pamby half measures, simply locking them up is not good enough, that wont stop old ladies from jaywalking, they are habitual offenders, jaywalking its an uncontrolled crime wave! Being as YOU are, I suggested YOU might take on board some real deterrents, French research shows the guillotine is most effective in stopping habitual jaywalkers! In 1789.... 10,386 Parisians were guillotined for the crime of jaywalking, and not surprisingly not one re-offended! I think that is your kind of justice.

Law is literally meaningless when the victim is not afforded any consideration for compensation !