It's interesting that those protesting most against racism by white people named "Antifa" have a red and black flag that symbolizes Marxism (red) and Anarchism (black) they have been around in various forms since the 1930's.

It seems that the core of the so called Antifascist movement (anti-racist movement) are Marxist's. You couldn't get more extremist than the Marxist's.

It seems that the whole modern concept of Anti-racism is corrupt. Presumably those that go along with anti-racism are similarly corrupt.

The Marxist's are known for their sophisticated propaganda tactics and "agiprop".

It seems anti-racist's are the bigots.

Kudos to the American's that stopped WWII by dropping the bomb. By having the courage to make hard decisions. And Kudos to the Japanese that have become our friends and pulled themselves up from their bootstraps.

No JD. Nowhere did I say they specifically talked about people using the 2 million in 1945. You've just decided that's the issue. But you're in a minority of one.

Dropping Little Boy and Fat Man stopped the war and saved millions of lives. That remains the truth irrespective of whether they saw it that way at the time. And it remains the truth even if you want to deny it.

Are you truly saying these lives weren't saved because people didn't talk about it in 1945!! That's some misunderstanding of history.

As to people at the time, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson said at the time that an invasion would cost "1 million U.S. casualties and several million Japanese deaths". A June 1945 study by the Joint War Plans Committee 40,000 U.S. deaths and 150,000–200,000 total U.S. casualties just to take Kyushu. Japanese casualties weren't precisely estimated but assumed to be potentially 1–2 million military and civilian deaths, given Japan’s mobilization of civilians and kamikaze tactics.

But if you don't want it to be true, it isn't, heh JD?

mhaze,

You keep circling back to the same move: present separate, wide-ranging estimates from 1945, add them together decades later, and then talk as if the people making the decision were working from that unified picture. That’s the only way your “well over 2 million” line works.

The Purple Hearts?

Around 1.5 million were made for all anticipated Pacific casualties - wounded and killed - and for post-war years. That stockpile lasted into Iraq and Afghanistan. Logistics, not a neat projection for Olympic/Coronet, and certainly not a “here’s the 2 million” number.

The Stimson comment?

He spoke of US casualties plus “several million Japanese deaths” - a ballpark warning, not a formal calculation that included POWs and occupied populations.

The Joint War Plans Committee Kyushu study?

Around 40,000 US deaths and 150-200k total US casualties just for Kyushu, with no precise Japanese civilian estimate.

All real. All important. All separate.

Nobody in 1945 - not Stimson, not the JWPC, not Truman - produced a single figure that bundled them into a “millions saved” tally. That came later, when critics pressed the moral question and defenders began retroactively aggregating estimates to make the decision sound self-evidently virtuous.

Pointing out that distinction isn’t “denying lives were saved.” It’s about being clear on what was actually known and weighed at the time, versus what was assembled decades later to bolster the case.

If your only claim is “millions may have died in a full-scale invasion,” you could have said that without dressing it up as a 1945-style “rough estimate of well over 2 million.” But you didn’t, and that’s why the distinction matters.

Whether 2 million is right or wrong isn’t the issue here. You know that. Eh, mhaze?

"hen talk as if the people making the decision were working from that unified picture."

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, did I say that the people at the time were working off a 2 million figure. You're just making it up.

We're now up to the part where JD knows he's been shown up AGAIN and just tries to bluff his way out of admitting it.

Not playing.

mhaze,

Then your “rough estimate of well over 2 million” wasn’t from 1945, wasn’t in any contemporaneous plan, and wasn’t what the decision-makers were actually working from.

Glad we’ve clarified that.

That means my original point stands: the 2-million figure is a modern amalgamation, not a product of 1945 planning.

You can call that “making it up” if it makes you feel better, but it’s the plain reading of your own walk-back here.

No matter how much you pout.