http://www.christreformed.org/realaudio/20070323a.mp3

How much of our thinking and values and philosophical underpinning of our society... our understanding of time... do we owe to St Augustine?

Well... if you believe Paul Davies, atheist Astro Physicist, quite a lot. He claims to have been inspired by Augustines confessions..and his understanding of time.

It is said of Augustine, that he was possibly the most influential philosopher in history,(if I heard correctly) not bad for a master of rhetoric.

Augustine was apparently quite a chic magnet.. he was smart.. a student of rhetoric, and by 17 was shacking up with a chic, in Carthage, and she eventually bore him a son, who died at around 18 yrs.

He became involved with a heretical cult the Manichees and stayed with them for 9 yrs.. Finally leaving them when the leader could not answer his questions.

That he was an intellectual giant is indisputable..and his contribution to Christian theology almost unmatched.. but that modern Philophers such as Bertrand Russell and others pay verbal homage to him, is quite striking.

Bushbred might like to listen to this audio file, where it speaks of Augustine knowing about Platonism.. this is around AD425 before Islam.

In Short, he struggled with sexual desire, but went from sleaze, to saint.. converted to Christ, and is now a huge pillar in the history of the world and Church.
-City of God
-Confessions
-Against Faustus (The Manichee)

are some of his 5 million words of writing.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine.html

Thank Christ it was Augustine, with this title, I thought you were talking about me. lol. I'll go back to sleep now. I know you are looking for a sensible response. God Bless +++TSt+++

"In Short, he struggled with sexual desire, but went from sleaze, to saint.. converted to Christ, and is now a huge pillar in the history of the world..."

Are you talking about Kevin Rudd, Boazy?

CJ... *points to Fletch's post*

No.. furthest thing from my mind (Rudd).. but not a bad analogy.. lets just hope that if Rudd gets up, he will make at least a fraction of the contribution to the world that Augustine did.

What I'm hoping with this topic....is to open the door slightly that folks might look into that huge philosophical room from which we came..and are.

"Reason" was alive and well in Augustine, longggg before Aquinas.. and he is even accused by certain cynics out there of plagerising Plato.. which clearly shows an awareness of HIS awareness of Plato's ideas. But Augustine uses Plato's ideas in the context of his own intellectual struggle to define various lofty things, not to claim ownership of those ideas.

His life also shows how history can be turned by such apparently 'silly' or unusual things. When he was contemplating his life and future, before committing his heart to the Lord.. he was sitting alone and heard these words "Take up..and read" being sung by some children somewhere..he thought (though he could see no one) this was the turning point for him.....he began going into Scripture, and ended up as a Bishop.

I found his interaction with Jerome quite humerous.. they had a lot of back and forth about ideas.. He addresses Jerome "My dear friend..I know you are the greatest Biblical scholar in the world.....but if I may correct you on this minor point" You can imagine the wry cheeky look on his face while writing this...

We owe much of our 'now' to his 'then'.. so he is most worthy of at least some of our attention in this life.

The most surprising thing to me was to be told that Paul Davies is an atheist.

>>if you believe Paul Davies, atheist Astro Physicist...<<

I was so surprised in fact, I thought at first that Boaz may have picked the wrong Paul Davies.

From everything of his I have read, I have supposed him to be a normal, everyday believer - i.e. not an evangelist, proselytiser or fanatic - who uses his scholarship to muse on the crossover point between science and religion.

"The Goldilocks Enigma", I seem to recall, appeared to advocate acceptance of Intelligent Design, with all its harping on about the massive odds against gravitational forces being "just right" to create our universe. It is an argument so easily dismantled, that I assumed it was only put forward as advertorial for ID.

Nope. I could believe a fifth-columnist whose mission is to discredit atheism "from the inside", as it were, but that's as far as my credulity will stretch.

On that basis I am entirely unsurprised that he was "inspired by Augustines confessions..and his understanding of time."

But Augustine himself as "possibly the most influential philosopher in history"? That's a big call. Apart from the qualifier "possibly", of course, which is always a handy piece of weasel-work.

As a philosophical argument, for example, I find his conclusion that unbaptized babies go to hell significantly lacking in either humanity or logic.

But apart from that - Boaz, where did you get the idea that Augustine was a sex maniac?

As far as I know, he was in a monogamous relationship with the lady who bore his child for some fifteen years - even took her home to meet mum.

Do you have different information, or is this just another Boaz invention, merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative?

Pericles.. regarding Paul Davies .. I did not mean to malign or misrepresent him.. glad you picked up on the sympathy to I.D.

Regarding Augstine.. he expressed considerable struggles in the sex area, which stayed with him for a long time..... it comes out in his 'confessions' I believe.. I've not read them completely and have not come across the particular bit you mentioned about unbaptized babies.. but if you have a reference I'm happy to look it up.

In my 'possibly the greatest...' thing, I was just recollecting a once only listening to a lecture on him.

In this thread, I'm simply seeking to highlight a great man of the Church and of history to whom we all owe a great deal of intellectual debt whether we know it or not.

I am impressed by his use of reason.. and his ability to get out of the Manichee cult.. and his dedication to his office and profuse writing are to be admired.

I guess.. I'm seeking to 'connect' us more with the pillars of our hisorical tradition, and show that they were prone to the same vices we are..but with the recent threads on clergy and sex abuse..its good to find a great man who went the other way...

His greatest contribution is said to be in the area of his discussion of the Trinity.

Historically he was close to the period of the Nicene Creed.. and that creed is very important in understanding how the Church responded to the various heresies in encountered. He and his writing demonstrate a kind of 'what was going on at the coal face' drama which led to such creeds being formalized.