Yesterday, I witnessed an incident which showed me rather clearly how Western society is gradually derailing through Western mentality.
A boy (1) aged six was in the yard with a boy aged five when out of the blue Boy 1 punched boy 2 in the stomach causing him to fall down in pain.
The mother of boy 1 after saying "that's not nice please say sorry" to boy 2 did nothing except repeating herself a few more times in a rather & perplexingly soft tone considering what just happened. Boy 1 refused to apologise until his mother told her son that he'd not get an ice cream if he did not apologise. Only then did boy 1 go over to boy 2 & said sorry, clearly not meaning it.

I had to restrain myself from telling the mother that she is literally failing in disciplining her child & will cop the consequences of her her failing in a few years.

This wasn't a one-off. I've seen her son in action with others & he has a very nasty streak but mother refuses to see it & gets all offended when I tell her why not give him a clip behind the ears when the boy is clearly very nasty for his age.

To my eyes it was a clear example of how our society has been ruined by those academic social engineers who push for indiscipline for our own future detriment.

This mother might have handed her brat over to the government well before he turned 5 instead of raising him herself. I don't believe in abortion for any reasons other than a threat to the mother's survival, a serious disability detected in the unborn child, or rape.

But, a psychological test, followed by de-sexing if the test is failed, could be a good idea.

Thanks for fronting up with a pertinent topic, Indyvidual.

Indyvidual,

It's important to remember you are not this child's
parent. You need to be careful with the judgements
you're making and the words you're using to try
to get the mother to discipline her child. Some
parents may take offence at a stranger's attempts
to correct their child's behaviour.

As adults should we intervene and take sides?

When kids are having punch-ups among themselves it
is difficult to have a clear guide line as to whether
an adult should intervene or not. Kids will have
incidents when they fallout with others.

Some parents don't believe in adults intervening and
taking sides. They feel that kids have to learn from
their experiences how to stand up for themselves, how to
handle difficult situations and hopefully how to work
things out and get on with each other.

The consensus seems to be - that if a parent continues
to intervene and
defend then the child they're defending could
become dependent on adults sorting things out for them.
And in this way by intervening the adult could
damage the situation greatly.

Obviously, the behaviour of this child is causing you
stress.

However, if you've already pointed it out to the
mother that stronger discipline is needed - you've done
all that you could. Giving the child a "clip behind the
ear? " Many parents may find this objectionable. You can't
bash goodness into children. It usually has the opposite
result.

Indyvidual,

In the last generation, all traces of tough love and rule-bound parenting have been supplanted by a more empathetic style. The approach to bad behaviour is always therapeutic. Kids soon learn that they won't be punished, and that they don't need to take responsibility for their behaviour.

bash goodness into children
Foxy,
To take the phrase "a clip behind the ear" & twist it into the severe term of "bash" is a crystal clear indicator that you are actually part of & fostering the real problem that is the lack of discipline we're confronted by as a society.
What do you call a disciplining slap then ? Torture ?

There is a cause and effect argument with your confrontational scenario. Indyvidual.

In psychology studies, the ground is unclear if the character of a person is formed by environmental factors or is governed by genetic predisposition.
At times sibling rivalry has a robust outcome, (environmental): Behaviour is learned.
At other times, behaviour is innately expressed with spontaneity. (Genetic predisposition).
So that is a rough sketch of the two sources of natural character building resulting in differing predispositions and actions to environmental stimulus governing outcomes.

I have noted many children subjected to violent countermeasures by parents or authorities for that matter, which only entrenches their violent streak more firmly. The use of violence against violence can be counterproductive; it’s the endless argument!
On the other hand, a timid or submissive personality can be manipulated by violence with some ease and success.
It’s why extraction of confessions under torture are more easily and reliably extracted, depending on the personality type: Torture can be very successful, but not always guaranteed for positive conclusions.

The weak and submissive parent is soon manipulated by a strong willed child; that’s a human interaction outcome not necessarily related to the fall of the West, an unfolding event before our eyes I agree with you on.

Indyvidual,

I firmly believe that children need guidance and
direction.

They need to be taught what's right and
what's wrong. I certainly don't believe that kids
should do whatever they want. But I
don't believe that if they do something wrong they
should be punished in the process.

Unfortunately punishment and discipline have too often
been used as inter-changeable terms. They shouldn't be.
Punishment is causing deliberate harm as a retribution.
Making something bad happen to someone as a way to make
them "pay" for what they did.

I prefer discipline.

Discipline is teaching and directing your child to
understand and take responsibility for their actions.

Punishment isn't effective in the long term. After a while
It no longer works. And has to be increased.

It encourages kids to lie and avoid punishment rather
than avoid the behaviour you're trying to stop.
And it only works for a while than has to be increased
once it stops working. Not a win-win situation.

In any case - that's my take on things.

I've worked with children - from tiny tots to teens, to
older students. There's been many challenges. But the
rewards have been enormous and a real learning process
which I suspect will continue for as long as I live.

Many of the perpetrators of domestic violence, and violence in general today, are people who were subjected to violence themselves as children. Sometimes the violence was directed towards the child, and sometimes the child witnessed violent behaviour from someone else towards another, often the victim would be their own mother, or a sibling. The "clip behind the ear" as a response simply reinforces the notion that violence is a legitimate response to negative behaviour, violence then becomes learned behaviour. As for the "de-sexing" rubbish, just nonsense.

Now the term "violence" is introduced. Again, this is a clear indicator of people losing track of normal, common sense.
The scenario I first described is the most common reaction of new age, post Baby boomer parents. The utter lack of basic, instinctive discipline & utter lack of understanding it has instantly been twisted into violence & extreme examples. A young child who misbehaves will not comprehend that a soft-spoken "please don't be naughty" is something to heed. A slight "clip behind the ear" or a "slap" on the backside will be interpreted as something to heed.
Is it any wonder that school children run amok & the worse than their children parents are totally off the rail at the slightest disciplining by someone who has to actually take the step of disciplining them because the me, me dumb-as-crap social "experts' object ?
These out of control kids are the young adults we'll have to deal with, not the stupid parents !
I just hope those objecting to basic harmless discipline will become victims of these indisciplined little craps one day just to experience how stupid their views actually are !
I have & forgiveness is not the way after you've lost over fifty grand worth of equipment & have the little craps laugh at you because they know they can & do it to others as well without repercussion !!

Indyvidual

The leading post was in reference to a five and six YO. Your last post has introduced a new dimension of Juvenile crime. What that does is links early child hood discipline with a later stage developmental outcome. That linking may or may not be so relevant when there may be many more factors involved, or more water under the bridge since early childhood.

Juvenile crime is much more linked to peer pressure and other environmental factors such as family breakdown which is rife; drugs and alcohol play a significant role in anti social behaviour, and poverty of the individual culprits. Lack of resources will induce crime.

So which issue do you want to deal with? It seems to me your judgment is to blame all, current and future behavioural issues on early childhood activity.
This is what I point out, the two are not necessarily contiguous.

your judgment is to blame all, current and future behavioural issues on early childhood activity.
diver dan,
Allowing a mentality of indifference towards others to flourish unchallenged is not caused by early childhood activity. It is caused by unqualified parenting snow-balling !

Nuremberg Dan, Nimbin Paul Here,

I actually agree with something you've said;

"Juvenile crime is much more linked to peer pressure and other environmental factors such as family breakdown which is rife; drugs and alcohol play a significant role in anti social behaviour, and poverty of the individual culprits. Lack of resources will induce crime."

I see that in my own grandchildren, the environment they were brought up in is what has them now becoming decent adults, as they pass from their teens to adults. Well adjusted through a good home environment, schooling and their social environment, those things, "have done them well". I've met kids who never had a chance from the start, very sad home life.

Me thinks there is one old bloke who just wants the perverted pleasure of belting little children on their bare backsides.

That linking may or may not be so relevant when there may be many more factors involved, or more water under the bridge since early childhood
diver dan,
Imagine being guilty of producing a child like Paul1405 ? Anyhow, future indiscipline is a direct link to no past discipline !
There's no in-between as there's no pause in the development of mentality. That water under the bridge is experience in common terms & that ranges from very bad to very good. A selfish person will never be a good parent no matter how many "resources" you provide them with.
A child that has never been disciplined will never be disciplined enough to consider others as anything more than someone to exploit or ridicule i.e. of poor mentality & poor character !

Children aren't small adults. They have yet to develop the cognition to allow them to make valid and thought-out decisions or to control their emotions. For this reason children are prone to tantrums and irrational reactions to minor provocations.

These days the 'preferred' approach to this is to try to reason the child out of their unreasonable actions. It often works or at least de-escalates. But there are times when no amount of 'reasoning' will snap irrational behaviour and then a shot sharp smack is how you bring the child back to reality. The notion that this teaches kids to be violent is rubbish and isn't backed by the slightest science or sociological research.

No one is suggesting that ongoing violence or gratuitous violence against kids is valid or in the slightest bit helpful. But the occasional short sharp smack is a valuable tool that most parents now abjure to their cost.

I had three kids who rarely, if ever, got hit. The story that I passed on to them when they became parents has helped them to raise well-behaved (grand)kids also. One night my 4 yr old eldest was out of control. I gave him an out by counting to 3 before administering the short sharp smack. I'd never hit him before and it shocked him into reality. Thereafter he knew the consequences of my getting to '3' in the count and the short sharp smack became superfluous. The funny part was that I never had to do this with his younger siblings when they got older. Even though they never experienced what happened at '3' they knew their elder brother avoided it, and they adopted the same stance.

The 'experts' in child raising have misled most parents and governments, chasing the warm inner-glow have made any sort of punishment problematic. They aren't doing society any favours.

Who sat me on the cold, cold, pot
Whether I wanted it or not?
Me Mudder

Who took me from my warm, warm, bed
And smacked my bum till it was red?
Me mudder

When at night the bed did squeak
And I raised my head to have a peek
Who yelled at me to go to sleep?
Me fadder!

Foxy,

Funny, cheers !
I can actually remember such an incident when I was about 4.

Old man arrested in Birkdale was trying to abduct 8 year old girl from her mother in shopping centre car park. Some people are strange.

Paul1405,
Strange indeed & even more strange are those who defend that old man !

"Peak bodies of paediatricians in Australia have published position statements against the use of physical punishment. For example, the Paediatric & Child Health Division of The Royal Australasian College of Physicians in their position paper have said that physical punishment is an outdated practice with adverse consequences in the long term for the child’s health, behaviour and emotional wellbeing"

http://aifs.gov.au/resources/short-articles/what-does-evidence-tell-us-about-physical-punishment-children#:~:text=The%20adverse%20impacts%20from%20physical,similar%20way%20to%20child%20abuse.

Australia is no longer a country that values children and family as it once did.

Our birth rate is below replacement level.

People who do have children are spending less time with them.

It now costs about $700 a month to raise a child.

Peter Costello was the last politician to campaign for more births. The ‘baby bonus’ saw births rise from 1.7 in 2001 to 2.02 in 2008. When the bonus was abolished in 2014, the birth rate dropped below 1.6.

The financial situation and the political situation (mass immigration) is anti-motherhood and anti-children.

Like Soviet Russia, Australian women have been dragooned into the workforce.

Talking about Peter Costello?

Humans have the intelligence, the tools, and the
natural resources to provide for a good sustainable
life as long as there are not so many humans that
we exceed the globe's carrying capacity.

All the evidence suggests that we must turn around
population growth and aim for a much smaller
population than we have today.

There should be a rejection (and condemnation) of ideas
from politicians like the one-time possibility for
Australia's PM - Peter Costello and his push for large families.
I can't remember how many kids he had. Did his wife work?

Dear Paul,

Thanks for the link.

Some people prefer opinions to facts.

"Peak bodies of paediatricians in Australia have published position statements against the use of physical punishment.

Again, all out of context. Instilling discipline has no relation to physical punishment. Just another insidious manipulation of words.

.

My mother told me when I was a kid that I could fight whoever I liked as long as it was somebody bigger and stronger than me.

I always followed that rule outside the boxing ring - and still do.

My brother and I grew up without a father and we always obeyed our mother.

She worked hard to earn a living for the three of us and my brother and I looked after ourselves.

We were bush kids.

.

Besides the environmental element there is also the human element, the DNA in ones development, that makes a person what they are. Humans are as varied as domestic dogs in nature, some are Poodles, others are Rottweilers, but no ones pure breed, we're all some kind of Heinz variety.

Indy, glad to hear than you don't necessarily agree with that old adage; "Spare the rod, spoil the child".

Just now i saw this on FB;

Not disciplining your child at 5 will show at 15. It won't be funny then.
Be a parent, not a friend.

We were bush kids.
Banjo Paterson,
As kids you would have been disciplined by your mom but you didn't realise it because it was normal ! Be glad, appreciate it !

A kid wearing a t-shirt:

"I'm spoilt
Because no one will spank
NANA!"

Foxy,
Well, try to read it this way ; Because no one spanked Mom & Nana !

Indy,

Are you an American, being so Trumpish as you are? "MOM" not used in Aussie, repeat after me MUM! MUM! MUM! Maybe your name is CHUCK Jr the Third?

Indyvidual,

Here's two more kid's t-shirts:

"Christian Brothers
Leather-strap
SURVIVOR".

And -

"Sisters of Mercy
Cane
SURVIVOR"

American teacher and educational psychologist - Haim
G. Ginott, wrote:

"When a child hits a child we call it aggression. When a
child hits an adult we call it hostility. When an adult
hits an adult we call it assault. But when an adult hits
a child - we call it discipline.

Pity, that Foxy & Paul1405 didn't have any discipline instilled hence their mentality !
It's never a good thing when kids miss out on the privilege of discipline making them adults who contribute to guide the next generation.

Dear Paul,

Everyone knows that one person who can turn any discussion
into something nasty.

See you on another discussion.

The Left-wing state has taken too much power and responsibility away from parents. There is constant pressure for diktats on what parents should feed their children, who the children should be allowed to watch on TV and social media. The welfare state never stops encroaching on the family's privacy.

"All the evidence suggests that we must turn around
population growth and aim for a much smaller
population than we have today."

"All the evidence?" Do tell. A tad hyperbolic methinks.

As usual, you're about 20 years behind the curve. The issue of over-population, if it ever was an issue, is long since resolved. The growing issue in under-population.

If you want to reduce the population of Australia, stop supporting immigration. The day that stops is the day Australia's population starts to decline.

Oh, I bet you heard about China's one child policy. But have you heard about their three child policy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-child_policy

There are stories that the CCP is looking at ways of making it compulsory although how that would work is difficult to understand. OTOH, just because a policy is anti-human and totally impractical never stop the Marxists from enforcing it anyway.

Talking about evidence?

The study of the ideas of the great thinkers and
activists who have helped put sustainability on the
cultural and political map traces the development of
the key disciplines underpinning modern environmental
decision making, otherwise known as sustainability
science, economics, and ethics.

It illustrates how these will need to be applied
in the 21st century.

As for population growth?

It's only logical that an increase in the world's
population will cause additional strain on resources.

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

More people means an increased demand for food, water,
housing, energy, healthcare, transportation, and more.

And all that consumption contributes to ecological
degradation, increased conflicts, and a higher risk
of large scale pandemics and so on.

Nuff said.

So "All the evidence" comes down to Foxy's mere unresearched assertions.

Why am I not surprised?

Here are the facts.

There is no such thing as "additional strain on resources". We aren't in danger of running out of resources. We have more resources today than yesterday and we'll more tomorrow. More oil, more food, more of everything except for commonsense and a reverence for the data.

If population is the problem then settle your little head since it is already being resolved. If the world's population isn't already in decline, it will be in the next decade or so.

But that will create other, bigger problems as people like the CCP are now realising (don't worry the Foxy's of the world will catch up or catch on). Because the only resource that truly matters and isn't in unlimited supply is the human brain and having less of them will be a problem if not a disaster

Today we desperately seek solutions to
climate change, water scarcity, pollution,
and Third World poverty. But of course you can't
use logic to dissuade someone who didn't use logic
to reach their viewpoint in the first place.

Meanwhile, unfit parents & just as unfit educators & unfit social engineers & unfit bureaucrats will increasingly fail to ensure that children can't develop a mentality that will make them responsible adults !

of course you can't
use logic to dissuade someone who didn't use logic
to reach their viewpoint in the first place.
Foxy,
There's logic & then there's academic logic, which one do you think will be more effective for the betterment of societies ?
We've had the latter for over 50 years now & no-one's too impressed hence the swings to the more logical conservative logic in smarter societies !

And Individual…did you learn anything you didn’t already know?

Indyvidual,

American educational psychologist and teacher
Haim G. Ginott wrote in one of his books about a letter
that teachers would receive from their principal each
year. To paraphrase the letter:

"I am a survivor of a concentration camp. My eyes saw
what no person should witness. Gas chambers built by
learned engineers. Children poisoned by educated
physicians. Infants killed by trained nurses. Women
and children shot by high school and college graduates.
So I am suspicious of education."

"My request is this: help your children become human.
Your efforts must never produce learned monsters,
skilled psychopaths, or educated Eichmanns.
Reading, writing and arithmetic are important as is
discipline but only if they serve to make our children
more human."

Have a nice day.

did you learn anything you didn’t already know?
diver dan,
Well, learn is not the correct word. I'd say the evidence confirms the thinking of my mentality !

Individual

It’s no laughing matter, I live in a well behaved wealthy community which is extraordinarily low on youth crime. Just recently an acquaintance had the gearbox stolen from his car overnight while it was parked in the driveway; that’d be a first.

Move to a quieter community with less youth crime is the answer. Gated communities are growing like mushrooms around me, in spite of low crime locally. There’s a community sense that things are about to worsen, I’m a believer in that thinking.
Can’t be too careful.

Indy and others,

What's your opinion on corporal punishment in schools. Up until the 1970's and later, punishment using canes and straps etc, was very much the norm in many schools, particularly private schools, certainly a much used form of punishment in Catholic Paedophile Schools, which are still open for business today.

Paul1405,
First of all, I'm against "punishment" when only mere discipline is required. A light clip behind the the ear like Gibbs does to Di Nozo in NCIS is a warning to settle down & behave. if started at an early age this is sufficient. When a young child misbehaves & does not respond to warning words & a clip, then a slap (not bashing as some like to say) on the backside is warranted. That should be standard discipline by parents AND early childhood teachers or even baby sitters. I copped severe beltings & kickings & now I'm actually appreciative of that although it shouldn't have to get that harsh.
Punishment is another level altogether & should only happen for 7 - 12 year olds. The traditional ruler across the backside or the hands should be the limit. Of course we don't want excessive force that leaves more than red marks.
Such discipline prevents the out of hand behaviour by young school kids we hear of in schools far too frequently. Teachers should not have to fear parents outrage for discipling kids whose parents are unfit & failing to instil discipline in their kids.
Another issue is the praising of non achievers ! This too is responsible for many off the rail youngsters. Good kids have nothing to fear from good teachers & parents. If kids aren't made aware of doing wrong then they will get worse by the day. Evidence for that is all around us !

No takers ?