As thousands live in cardboard boxes etc on the footpaths of American streets NASA (still) sucks billions of dollars out of the US budget for their great "outward dream".
How much is this great "outward dream" costing us each year here in Australia as we get drawn deeper into the grand vision as a small elite group of men and women desperately seek the work it gives?
Is this dream of a glorious planet-hopping future even possible? Would the earths resources even support a first colony on Mars.
With so much of the green forest already lost to greed and apathy wouldnt it be wiser to turn back to the planet and reafforest?

Gibo, NASA and similar programs in other countries are an expense that sometimes it seems difficult to bear.

Just as once someone working at tying reeds together to make a raft must have seemed an expense the tribe could ill afford untill they learned to make rafts that let them travel safetly to the other side of the lake or river.

Just as someone carving a dugout canoe would have been an expense that the tribe could ill afford until ships were built that let the tribe trade with other tribes and explore new lands.

Just as someone building a primitive flying machine that could barely get off the ground must have been an expense that the builders could barely afford but which lead to modern air travel.

NASA and others are still working with primitive rafts, the most complex rafts ever built but primitive. Unless we persist with this step we will never build the great ships that will take our explorers beyond well our gravity well.

The technology needed for the moon missions of the late 60's and early 70's have been catalysts for much of the technology of the modern era. There is good reason to believe that finding the technology to carry man further will reap even greater rewards.

If we let the cardboard boxes stop us in this what else should go as well? There are many things which cost us when the money and effort might appear to be of more immediate use, art being a worthy example. When we surrender the dream we loose something important.

R0bert

Great reply.

Just watch as the soft left squal about the idea of cutting the arts. Pure science has benefits of its own, but the technology that is invented by NASA in prepartion for their explorations has been of benefit to everyone.

Amen, great reply Robert!

Its interesting ROBert what you said.
Very well composed though I will have to disagree with the statement "if we let the cardboard boxes stop us in this, what else should go as well".
I really feel if we dont care about putting people in need first, we are not really human beings at all.
Isnt lifes truthful way, "give water to a thirsty man"? Jesus is also saying to His apostles "Give to those who ask, give to those who are in need". In need. This is where NASA goes wrong and the US government lets them. They uplift the great outward dream and forget about all else. I see it as a cowardly deserting of earth and its problems, for a fantasy that wont happen.
NB: an average young person with good computer skills could create a computer program that would show without doubt that NASAs fantasy is already lost...also proving along the way that NASA already knows of the loss of the great outward dream but continues on anyway quielty covering this knowledge to continue sucking the US economy of its wealth. Conspiracy I believe.
All the computer geek has to do, is to collect all of the data on all of the "natural breakdown" caused by pollution, global warning, the tearing up of the forests, the pumping out of all of the underground water, all of the information on the spread of wars...and... BINGO...he has a computer program that SHOWS! that time is simply not there before the world collapses... that there is no time to planet-hop to a glorious escape who we are. NASA isnt so stupid as not to know this. They just keep it quiet, continue to neglect the poor and continue to plunder global coffers by encouraing other nations to jump onto the dead dream. Im sure glad God's in Charge and will soon bring things to an end. John's Revelation is a good read.

Gibo, very few of us devote everything that could be devoted to causes such as hunger, disease, homelessness etc. Despite the short term difference it could make we give those issues priorities just as other choices get priorities.

Even Jesus found a time to say that there is a time and place for other things. I'm stuggling to remember the exact detail at the moment but my recollection is of a woman being chided for wasting expensive perfumed oil by anointing Jesus with it rather than selling it and giving the money to the poor.

I go to the movies from time to time, occasionally out for dinner, next week a few nights away. All things that could make a significant difference in someone elses life. I also give money to help causes I thing will help. What changes when someone sends people into space, commissions a public art work or builds a church is not the principle but the scale.

I get the impression that you are christian, can you see that the priorities of the christian church might seem to a massive waste when we see people starving. I don't know your denominational preferences but an eye opener for me was walking into St Peters basilica.

I have an evangelical background and had heard enough of the cost to the world of building that structure to have formed some fairly strong views on the issue. Walking into it was enough to make me realise that I only saw part of the picture, that despite the harm done by it's construction and my own views at the time on catholic theology it is one of the wonders of the world.

Mankind may be in for a rough ride with the risk of environmental collapse facing us, my guess is that we will need both the technological spin offs from pushing frontiers and the dream of a future to get us through that stuff.

Much more to my taste than the stuff in Revelation.

R0bert

What do you perceive these technological spin offs to be RObert that might be of benefit to saving our world? Tapping into the earths electrical fields to give unlimited electrical power to the ordinary household? No sign of that yet. Anti-gravity that might lift huge cities above the earth so the forests can re-grow. No sign of that yet. All the while NASA fiddles with their great "outward dream" people are tearing up the forests, the great breathing areas are going. New tech wont stop that. Who is going to say to India, China, South America, Malaysia and the Phillipines...."you have to stop now. You can have no more economic growth because youre killing the planet by killing the trees". Its the words that start wars. NASA is simply running out of time. I believe they know the space race is already lost. Mars is too far. The time to get there too long. What is truly needed is a change in the hearts of men and women towards Creation and towards each other. Unless we get that the world is lost. Science believes it can save us but only a heart change is really going to do it. Man cannot govern the planet outside of God.

A reality check.

NASA's 2008 budget will be of the order of $17 bn.

http://www.nasa.gov/about/budget/

That's a lot of money but for an economy the size of the US, $13 trillion, it's peanuts. It's ONE SIXTH the annual cost of the Iraq war.

If you want an example of what's REALLY helping keep people in third world countries in poverty consider the tens of billions spent on agricultural subsidies. Europe is the worst offender but the US is no slouch.

See for example:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/trade/subsidies/

First world agricultural subsidies are actually worse than simply barring third world countries from markets. They lead to overproduction and a general drop in commodity prices. They also force third world countries to focus on crops like coffee.

A lot of what passes as "food aid" is really dumping US and European food surpluses on third world markets. Real food aid would focus on developing local agriculture which means opening markets.

You have chosen a rather strange target Gibo. One that's almost irrelevant to the issue of global poverty.

BTW unless I am mistake Australians spend almost as much on beer and other alcoholic beverages as NASA spends on space exploration. Perhaps if every Australian donated 10 cents for every dollar he or she spends on beer to projects aimed at alleviating third world poverty we could make a difference.

Gibo,

The churches could end poverty at a stroke by selling off their massive real estate holdings, worth thousands of times Nasa's budget, but that isn't going to happen.

Your argument that it is NASA fault that massive land clearing is going on in Asia is insane. NASA is not responsible for those decisions. It is as much your fault as it is NASA’s.

Whilst there is little doubt that climate change is a fact, the consequences are not yet known. Despite what AL Gore would have you believe we are not in imminent danger of being inundated by the oceans. It was extremely dishonest of him to pretend we might be. I am not going to debunk all his claims, but suffice it to say, that when it came to the consequences of Global warming, Gore found the truth a little inconvenient himself. Read the ICCC reports if you don’t believe me.

The advantages of pure scientific research are never predictable precisely because they are investigating areas never before surveyed. And the discoveries of pure science have enriched our lives tremendously, both materialy and spiritualy.

I think we are now getting closer to your real objection to NASA’s space program. The current evangelical movement has begun an attack on the sciences, jealous of their role in modern society. The Creationism rubbish as well as the denial of Darwin theories are religious attacks on what they see as paganism.

You have no evidence whatsoever that society will not be around long enough for man to travel to Mars. This is simply another doomsday prediction, among many put forward by those who are foolish enough to believe in the literal translations of revelations. Remeber Jonestown?.

Your argument neatly jumps the bandwagon of the green movement to frighten more people into converting to Christianity. This is truly the ugliest part of Christianity and is nothing new.

Don’t you think your lot has done enough scaring people with your fantastical visions of hell and the imminence of the worlds end?

Save your theological predictions for fellow travellers and leave science alone

Gibo, we won't know what the future outcomes will be. We can take some guesses but we can also look back at the last time NASA pushed outwards and the spin off's from that. I read a book some years ago on the spin offs from the moon landings but am hazy on the specific details.

My recollection of the key points is
- Estimates of easily tracable financial spin offs of around 30 times (some estimates much higher) the cost of the program.
- The development of much of our modern medical technology was boosted by the work done to put man on the moon.
- Big efforts towards minaturisation of electronics and development of more powerful computers have had massive flow ons to our time.

Looking forward, we might see some really good work done on growing food in confined spaces. We will see further advances in medical technology as NASA and others work out how to monitor and preserve the health of astronauts. We may learn some things about propulsion systems as NASA works out how to power craft through the atmosphere of MARS.

We don't generally know before a big effort what the spin off's will be to other area's. We do know from past experience that the spin offs will come.

Exploring space is such a nicer way of learning those kind of lessons than fighting wars.

Others have pointed out that the link between NASA and land clearing is either tenuous or non existant.

R0bert

My real complaint, stevenlmeyer, was the fact that the US isnt looking after her poor people (she has become decadent, more so in the last 20/30 years). In the back streets of LA, just out of sight from the tourist, are desperate people actually living in boxes and leanto's, supported almost entirely by local church charities (good one Arnold, you look after California real well). I also wanted to talk about the great NASA fantasy. I think the NASA fantasy is also a great deception that other nations have been conned into dreaming about. As a born again christian I have to look at everything from a Holy Bible point of view. NASA sticking their heads in the stars with their great "outer space/escape the earth for a glorious high tech future" dream is offensive. It resists Gods Word which points to the great spirit war here on earth (Ephesians 6:12-18) and the need in each life to make a decision for Jesus Christ, the Man Who was on the Cross for our sins. The outer space dream is an antichrist vision. It cant be fulfilled in the time God has appointed for the war on earth and it would suck all of the resources from the earth to attempt to fulfill it. My belief is that soon NASA is going to slow to a halt and then become defunct. This being done by God to get mans attention back to the earth and the spirit war and to Jesus the Saviour. Planet hopping was always impossible. Everything was too far away; and God Had His Plan that WILL be fulfilled. The Book of Revelation, as one very wise pastor said, is all about God getting mans attention back onto His Plan and Jesus Christ. We got conned... by the scientists and space dreamers who had rejected the Holy Bible and Gods Plan for earth.

I wasnt saying Paul.L that NASA was responsible for the loss of the forests in asia, or anywhere else, just that they were so full of their precious personal fantasy that they, as a powerful group of men and women who had the oomph for doing good with the environment, were so distracted that the loss of the forests was actually happening without their help to stop it. Brilliant minds but adrift amongst the stars. They are deserting the planet, in their hearts, to dream of being Captain Kirk. Its a black comedy. Gods Plan will be filfilled and all who dream of other things, will be brought back down to that Plan.

Gibo, your comment "My belief is that soon NASA is going to slow to a halt and then become defunct."

If it does it will be because of human actions of people afraid of learning hindering their work. People who pretend that their concern is for the well being of the poor or the need to have money to wage war when really what they are concerned about is stopping discovery and learning. People who want a return to the dark ages because primitive beliefs hold more power in the dark than in the light.

Look back to the examples of christains like Scott (of Antarctic fame). Men of faith looking to understand their Gods creation rather than to the example of priests of the dark ages desperate to stop others learning in ways that they cannot control.

Remember the bit in the bible about knowing the truth and the truth setting you free. Now there is a part you should take seriously rather than the fantasy overlays that you seem to grasp to make your faith more interesting.

R0bert

Thanks RObert. If you are into technology books RObert you might look at an oldie but a goodie.
THE COSMIC CONSPIRACY by Stan Deyo.
Its from the mid to late 1970's. Its about the Illuminati, the New World Order, the coming antichrist world dictator and his microchip/mark on either the right hand or forehead ID/money system (Revelation 13:16-18/14:9-11)..and about the alleged construction of electric flying discs (flying saucers). It also has a Bible based christian theme to it. Its still available on the net for readers if they want. Click on Millenium-Ark! Actually I became a born again christian reading Stans book. Wasnt I surprised that God was really there. It changed my whole life getting saved.

So... you read a book about flying saucers and microchipping humans, and this is what prompts you to become a born again Christian?

This explains a great deal...

You seem bitter about lifes' lot TurnRightThenLeft?
I got born again reading a preaching of Jesus in the centre of the book. Been supporting Stan's book ever since. Maybe you should try a committment to The Lord. Your days would be full of happiness, cheerfulness and hope for the future. "All who call on the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ will be saved"...Romans 10:13. Now off to a lively christian church to hear about the Second Coming.

I think you confuse bemusement for bitterness, Gibo.

I've been exposed to Christianity from a young age, and found it reasonably similar to the many of the other thousand faiths rolling round out there. Quite frankly, I'm more enamoured with philosophical works.

Perhaps you should try reading the views of more learned scholars than 'Stan Deyo.'

Maybe even a little Aquinas. He was a committed christian, so you don't need to worry about being seduced by the anti-christ or whatever it is that underpins your belief system.
And yet, his writings could present you with an alternative Christianity that doesn't depend on the ritualistic trappings of demons, flying saucers and all that carry on.

If youre more enamoured with philosophical works TurnRightThenLeft perhaps your exposuse to Christianity was only surface. A child distracted for a moment. Beyond listening to the Bible I dont have much time for other reading. Mens ponderings tend to bore. I dont see demons as ritualistic trappings not after so many years of warfare with them. As for UFO's... we will just have to wait and see if they are a part of the New World Order plan around the time of the antichrist.
How do you find the constant TurnRightThenLeft? It would drive me mad to be obsessive/compulsive at ever corner. I prefer the straight, narrow path of Gods Word.
No drifting.

But that's just it Gibo. You claim that if I haven't become a Christian, that my exposure to Christianity must only be a surface exposure.

I'm afraid that's not the case. It wasn't a mere child's distraction, it's been quite extensive.
What do you say to all the other faiths out there? Far more people exist on this planet belonging to faiths other than Christianity. Have you immersed yourself in their views as well? Have you considered seeking the Buddhist nirvana? What of the gods of the Hindus? Heck, maybe you should seek Valhalla.

Are all of these faiths just skimming the surface? How can you judge if you haven't examined them?

See, you also note that you haven't the time to check other philosophers - therefore, you've just selected christianity on the basis of what? Just Stan Deyo? It's like saying you like one kind of food best, but without trying anything else.

So to recap your view:

1) I've battled demons.
2) I read about flying saucers and microchips, and decided Christianity was the way to go.
3) I didn't really suss out alternatives views from philosophers. Deyo does it for me.

As for obsessive compulsion - dunno where that came from. I'd define obsession as probably be more likely to be connected to things like demons and saucers. Though I do enjoy musing on philosophy and theology - but I'd rather question the whole gamut of religions than just run with one that's put in front of me.

As for blindly following a straight line - only problem there is, you're apt to bump into anything that falls in your path.
Rather than bump problems repeatedly, I'd rather explore and find a way around...

Though I must admit, I don't doubt your faith. It must take quite a lot to stick with your unshakeable belief in demons and flying saucers.

Getting back on-topic for a moment - albeit a brief moment, I suspect - could Gibo hazard a guess at how this extra $17bn a year would actually be used to address poverty?

No amount of unattached, free-floating dollars have ever made a significant impact on the problem, I'm afraid. As someone once said, "For the poor always ye have with you..." (John 12:8)

And a great deal of NASA'a budget is, I suspect, simply another input to the cycle of manufacturing and consumption that makes up any economy. How much of the money "saved" by closing NASA down would instantly disappear in unemployment benefits, reduced income for satellite industries, the corner shop etc.

>>an average young person with good computer skills could create a computer program that would show without doubt that NASAs fantasy is already lost<<

The same "average young person" might also find that the net impact of the disappearance of NASA would actually increase poverty, rather than stamp it out.

Economies are interesting things. They certainly don't behave in a way that says "if I throw a lot of money at it, poverty will go away". In fact, if you were to re-allocate every dollar equally to every citizen on the planet, we would all live in poverty.

All of us.

Yes, I believed that Christianity was the way to go TurnRightThenLeft. As for demons. I know about them, as many christians do. As for UFO's. Lets wait and see. Who knows what they build in the "skunk works" manufacturing areas. Does anyone know whats next with high tech planes? Are there flying discs? Stan Deyo in The Cosmic Conspiracy says yes. I think its possible.

Its the morality Pericles. Or lack of it. An elite with their heads in the stars and people dying from poverty on the "golden streets" of American cities. Its planet desertion, poor people desertion, problem desertions. Turning our heads away when there are people in need. If NASA collapsed the workers would find other jobs. The jobs are there. Just not brought forward. We could re-afforest. Clean up the globe. Help the poor and get Gods Blessing. Mars is too far away.

I think you might have missed the point about the economics of it all, Gibo, but that's ok.

>>Its the morality Pericles. Or lack of it. An elite with their heads in the stars and people dying from poverty<<

This is pure idealism.

Nothing wrong with it, of course. We all go through that phase at some point in our lives, where the world is totally screwed up, and love is the answer.

I went through it in the sixties, when idealism, the new dawn, the age of Aquarius, peace and love brothers and sisters were all the answers we needed.

And we certainly had all the answers. What we didn't know, of course, was the question. But that didn't stop us marching against nuclear weapons, the Vietnam war, rampant capitalism, the whole kit and caboodle.

It is nice to see that the spirit of the sixties is still alive, in the same lopsided, half-the-picture sort of way.

But quite why you have picked on NASA is still a mystery.

They do no-one any harm. They perpetuate the spirit of adventure and discovery that has been with us since the first caveman. They employ many good and talented people and contribute to the economy.

It is a little glib to say "If NASA collapsed the workers would find other jobs. The jobs are there. Just not brought forward. We could re-afforest. Clean up the globe". That would not, I suggest, bring any comfort to the guys in the cardboard boxes, would it, if you simply pay the same people to plant trees instead of exploring space.

>>Mars is too far away.<<

I expect the caveman thought the same about the next village, or what was over that mountain. But in finding ways to get there he managed to invent the wheel.

Probably.

The economics is not important Pericles. 17 billion or 1,000 billion. Its not the point to me. Its the goof off trying to achieve the impossible when resouces and distance prohibit the efforts success... as people die. The issue for commited christians is to obey God and do what He says by His Word. Loving others simply doesnt neglect those in need. Loving others doesnt drift over to Star Trekking as a world and its peoples die.
When I started the thread this was what it was all about...NASA folk turning away from those in need to do the selfish.
Even if it was possible to do Mars do you think NASA would take the worlds poor people on their great planet hop? Would the aborigine, or the unemployed, or the refugee get a place on the space ships? NOT! if I know NASA and America. The elite would get seats and the "substandards" of earth would get left behind to scramble around for themselves. The four things God has against America, as revealed in Words of Knowledge to christian prophets, are its abortion, its pornography, its greed/selfishness and its neglect of its poor. NASA thinking stands as an abomination in those last two areas. Pity you hadnt bumped into the Jesus Movement in those wild hippy days. You might have been born again all these years. Apart from Jesus as Saviour having a heart for the needy is what life is all about.

Get off the grass Gibo, you obviously think that communications satellites, weather satellites, and land imaging satellites used for resource management and agriculture are also abominations in the eyes of the Lord. Because NASA are the ones that helped put them up there and they have been tremendously helpful for a very wide range of activities that help everyone rich and poor alike. Ever seen Google Earth? Where do you think they take those images from, a balloon?

NASA is a very odd target for a morality tale. They have been responsible for a very large range of technological breakthroughs that you don't even think about because it seems you only read two books.

Some technology NASA has funded research into: water purification, materials sciences including ceramics, titanium alloys and carbon fibres technologies that are used everyday by millions of people.

They also put up the satellites that study solar activity and can warn against solar storms and have produced satellite data that has helped identify the current anthropogenic climate changes.

These are just to name a few

The world would be a lot poorer without NASA, including the poor people.

When you eventually come out of your rapturous dreams of a society that doesn't, and cannot, exist, you will remember these posts of yours with exquisite embarrassment.

That's a promise, Gibo.

But don't let that deter you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with living in a dreamworld, where the flowers always bloom, the sun always shines, there's no such thing as poverty and the laws of economic reality have been banished.

Whichever way you cut it, life in your fantasyland would be impossible, in any conventional sense of the word. We would all live in poverty, but be sustained by the knowledge that God is being served, which in your imagining is all that is necessary.

Clue bat. Very few people think this is a good idea.

They are born, live a life of sorts that tries to make the best of what is around them and available to them, then they die. It is all so desperately unfair that so many people in the world are unable to live in the lap of luxury as you and I, Gibo. But it is not in our nature as human beings to sacrifice ourselves in great numbers, simply so that we can all share their pain.

Your final sentence pretty well says everything that needs to be said about your approach to this, Gibo, and please forgive me for pointing this out.

>>Apart from Jesus as Saviour having a heart for the needy is what life is all about.<<

"Having a heart" for the needy is one thing. Doing something about it is another. I have only the greatest respect for people who sacrifice their own lifestyle to help others in need, but I have to say that I suspect that you are not one of those. You talk a good game, Gibo, but ultimately you are still one of the immensely privileged, comparatively speaking.

>>Pity you hadnt bumped into the Jesus Movement in those wild hippy days. You might have been born again all these years.<<

Mate, you couldn't bloody move for them, they were everywhere. Some things do not change.

Gibo: "The four things God has against America, as revealed in Words of Knowledge to christian prophets, are its abortion, its pornography, its greed/selfishness and its neglect of its poor"

Spare us the loopy "christian prophets". Religion is a "parasite on the global community", and your precious Christianity is right up there with the worst of them.

Maybe your poor excuse for an argument regarding NASA would be less objectionable if the various wealthy Christian churches would be a little more forthcoming in opening their coffers to the world's poor, 'deserving' or not.

Youre a crabby bunch today. I preach a bit of caring for others and off you go.
I havent really preached a utopian world that was impossible to achieve, just a world that could have been achieved if the greater number of fallens hadnt followed the great golden calf of Science with all of its selfishness and there own ways. Gods path for man was always wiser.
I dont really think it matters too much what the viewpoint is. The truth we are all going to live is that God is Wrapping up human history and its going to happen in our lifetime cutting across all personal desires and all "visions of the future". This is the reality of what we are all going to experience.
The christian belief of the Soon Coming Jesus is all the future holds.
We just have to adapt to it.
Its all there in the great increase in wars, earthquakes, famines and diseases (Luke chapter 21) just prior to Christs Return. The great increase in crime towards the end (2 Timothy3). In the implementation of the microchip on either the right hand or forehead ID/banking system of Revelation 13:16-18 and 14:9-11. How do you explain these events connected to those scriptures if they are not true? We are all going to live it. Sorry if its offensive...but we are all going to live it. Christians today wait to see who the beast is.

Gibo, this is a forum for debate. The reason why some get a little tetchy, is because it's difficult to debate with someone when during a discussion of NASA's budget, they retreat into nutty religious arguments involving pornography, rapture and abortions.

I'd like to hear your response to the notions Bugsy put forth - what about all the other technological advancements that came as a side effect to NASA research - imaging satellites, research into climate cycles and sunspots, assistance with agriculture...

Oh, and if you can avoid those tangents it would be much appreciated.

(Though I must confess to some confusion when you say you believe in flying saucers while also saying NASA's research is futile...)

It doesnt have to be entirely debate TurnRightThenLeft. Im sure theres room for some storytelling, some viewpoint, some revealing. Does debate change all that much anyway? A simple passing around of knowledge might be a better focus. Less hot air and stress! I dont want to talk about NASA's budget, though you fellows sure seem interested. Its nothing to do with the "NASA fantasy of the great planet hop". Moneys not really involved. The fact is that NASA is going nowhere. They are part of "who gives a hoot about the needy, we are going to do what we want". They are part of the great distraction of science which rejects the Holy Bible and Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross for all of us and His teachings about how we are to care for the poor. As for Bugsys' technological advancements, so what? Quite often when new things are discovered there are good side-effects for society. Its just a fact. What I was saying is that the great rush to create new tech and to go new places with it, isnt what is going to happen. NASA has locked itself into an impossible dream and is too proud to admit the dream cant happen. NASA has a "God Plan/Bible knowledge" available to it yet it stubbornly continues on. The "world" as christians refer to it is a finite thing. God has a timetable on it. It wont last another 100 years. All of the christians know this. As for the flying discs...it appears that someone may be building them (See The Cosmic Conspircay by Stan Deyo). I can still believe in Jesus and believe that hidden tech is being built for a great deception. Theres no conflict. I notice you havent mentioned the "signs of the times in scripture" I mentioned. You guys pop right over the visible signs of the Second Coming to talk budgets and science.

The most ironic thing of course is that while you are denigrating technological achievements and NASA, you are doing it on the INTERNET. Much of the internet is possible because of communications satellites, put there by who? I'll give you a clue, it's not god.

There have been quite a number of cults and groups that believed in the end days in their time. It's been going on for more than 1000 years. Many thought the end days was going to be on around 1000AD!

Keep on believing what you want, it doesn't matter. But it won't stop us having a bit of a private chuckle at your expense of course.

Thats alright Bugsy, the internet doesnt mean two shillings to me as anything all that important. Its just another thing. I prefer a newspaper letters to editor column as a means of reaching ordinary folk. Im just having a rest from that at the moment. Actually I see the net as a great modern evil what with its bombmakers, and its witchcraft folk and its over 200 million sex sites each one encouraging the sex criminal into bolder and bolder acts of darkness. Like all else that isnt Jesus, the net is going to fall sometime in the not too distant future.

So, in essence, you're entire argument has been reduced to: science is folly, everybody should just follow the bible.

For a prime example of the kind of people who kept humanity mired in the dark ages, I present exhibit A: Gibo.

Perhaps we should just string up all the scientists who dare to question god...

Too simplistic TRTL. No, science is not folly. Much has been done for the good of mankind by science. Medicine is great, but sadly as it progressed men stopped seeking God for healings. Now many are so far into the science/medicine thing they are looking for the easy way out when infirmity comes. Science then becomes God to those who choose that path. God tells us not to bump ourselves off, but to go to Him. NASA's great and glorious outward dream is folly. They embarked upon it without any real common sense... with no regard to God or His Word, Who under those circumstances wont support the great dream...without taking into account the distance and the ability of earth resources to meet the dream. I expect NASA to fall in the not too distant future. Lets see if Im right.

I like the way you're able to combine UFOs into the picture with your christian views, but it is not my intention to discuss what UFOs are here. Rather just to point something out:

" Genesis makes it clear that God (not chance) created the universe and, consequently, that human beings were intentionally (not accidentally) created by God. Second, according to Scripture, the universe is already quite well populated with intelligent beings; they’re called angels. But most important of all, the incarnation of Christ was the union of God’s divinity with our humanity. Human beings were thereby placed at the center of the cosmic drama, which made no room for questions about the redemption of other intelligent beings (even angels)."

http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2002/feature7.htm

So far from the point that NASA's budget should be spent on something like ending poverty, your line of logic would have us believe that the divine incarnation of human beings on this planet would mean that there is absolutely no point in exploring space, at least for the purpose of furthering our knowledge about how life comes to be, since the only planet with life on it is earth and that is because it is the way god ordained it.

I ask, is it not fear that if this aspect of Christianity is proved wrong then there will be serious doubts raised about the rest of it more of a motivating factor in why you believe NASA should be shut down, rather than the amount of money they are being given?

The only thing I really said about UFO's D.Funkt was from the Cosmic Conspiracy by Stan Deyo and he was saying, based on his USAF service, and what he saw and heard in the USAF, he believed that the New World Order was building them as part of a deception to present our long-lost ancestors from another galaxy. I dont know if Stans thought has merit. But it sounds possible. I do know from life, "if theres a thief or a deceiver anywhere he will try to sell you a dud vehicle". Men are always trying it on, on other men. This could be a part of the NWO's plan for mankind. We know tech has been hidden by oil companies. Why not some by a sector of an evil One World Government? They already prepare an E-tag/microchip for either the right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18) which the Holy Bible says we are NOT to take (Revelation 14:9-11). They want to watch our every move by satellite! God didnt Give us free will and the freedom we have for an elite to take it off us. I was also saying that NASA is into fantasy. They know they arent going to make it. Christians recognise the time, in Gods Plan for earth, the nature of which you pointed out, simply isnt there. I believe the money might go better into poverty on US streets because no one in the US much cares about the poor apart from the churches and charities. Though the NASA budget is small, its better to use it to help people here, in need now, than on a great outward dream that will never happen. Yes! Why bother with outer space! We are on a dying planet and we need to turn back to it, not look outwards. I guess many of you dont see that, in caring for the world and its people, we are showing that we love. Too much science! Not enough heart!