In one of our other discussions a poster gave a quote about
Jews being responsible for Bolshevism. It got me thinking
about how quite a few people blame the Jews for so many
things which are not accurate and I thought it may be
interesting to see how others feel and why.

Jews have experienced more expulsions from various countries
in Europe. And the explanations of Jew hatred have been varied
ranging from 1) economic reasons - that they possess too much
wealth and power. 2) That they claim to be the "chosen people."
3) Scapegoats - they are an easy group to single out and blame.
4) Deicide - they killed Jesus. 5) Outsiders - they're different
to us and don't fit in. 6) Racial theory - they're an inferior
race. And the list goes on.

But how accurate are these explanations?
In my view - not at all.

There's a joke that says the history of almost all of the Jewish
holidays can be summed up in this way:

"They wanted to kill us. We won. Let's eat!"

Then there's an old Yiddish saying :

"If one person calls you a donkey. Ignore him. If two people
call you a donkey - buy a saddle."

There's more at the following link:

http://simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

Hi Foxy,

That's because its the "Christian" thing to do. For those people who hate, aboriginals, non-whites, gays, Muslims, socialists, progressives, liberals, women, etc etc, it easy to add Jews to the list. Anyway, I'm sure the forums gang of haters, our merry old men from the nut job department will be along shortly to explain why they hate anyone whose not like them.

Dear Paul,

I'm hoping that we'll be able to get rid of some of the
myths surrounding Jews.

I remember playing the role of Portia in Shakespeare's -
"The Merchant of Venice." And learning Portia's speech off
by heart - "The quality of mercy..." Of course this play
fed into many people's prejudices of Jews. And poor Shylock
got a bad rep. Of course we don't know Shakespeare's
intentions - but one question did come to mind - while
working on the play -

Why is Shylock - the Jewish character given the most
humanising speech in the play?

I loved it.

"Hath not a Jew eyes?"

"Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections,
passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons,
subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer,
as a Christian is?"

"If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not
laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us
shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that."

When Shylock asks these questions there's a shift; you have an
allegiance with him, and I don't think you ever really recover
from it.

In these few humanizing lines - the curtain is pulled back
and you get a glimpse of Shylock's character - what he's telling
his Christian enemies is - "I'm going to mirror back to
you what you really look like."

This could actually be an interesting discussion to explore, if it can be kept respectful.

Usually when any criticism of Israel or Jews are concerned, the discussion is shut down with claims that the person criticising is anti-semitic, and so the the question you asked 'Why Do People Hate The Jews?' is never actually fully explored.
- It's as if the topic itself is 'not to be discussed'.

I'm going to have to take some time to think about how I will lay my thoughts out, as I understand this topic and all it may entail can be a very sensitive topic.
I don't want any issues I raise to be considered racist or borne from hatred, but moreso from the perspective of a child's innocent curiosity.
- I certainly do not wish to upset anyone, nor do I wish to be accused of hatred if I am to take part in exploring this question.

One of the bigger issues I noticed that was missing from your short list was the Palestinian issue.
- This is probably one issue in which Israel gets a certain degree of criticism.

I've wanted to know that for a very long time. Weren't they already unpopular when Jesus was still a little boy ?

Armchair Critic,

I look forward to your contribution to this discussion.
And I should have included the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict in my list. There's probably a few other things
I forgot. However - please feel free to comment on that
as it is relevant - because some people do feel that any
criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. A view I don't agree
with.

Indyvidual,

I haven't looked at how far back the hatred of Jews goes.
Perhaps you could do that for us? And also tell us why?

indyvidual,

I be;ieve that during those centuries before Christ, the
Hebrews (early Jews) experienced intermittent persecution
because they refused to adopt the religion of the locale
or ruler and worship the idols of the Kingdoms of the
Middle East as was the custom at this time.

They refused to worship idols and this was seen as stubborn
and was resented.

Hi Foxy, to answer your question as best I can.

It may have something to do with the fact Judaism is the weakest of the three great monotheistic religions centred on the Middle East and in competition with each other. For most of the past two millennia Christianity and Islam have mostly been in balance but not without conflict, they have certainly been in competition with each other over control of both hearts and minds as well as territory.

The myth that the Jews were responsible for the downfall of the Christian redeemer Jesus Christ has added to the demonising of them by Christians. The spread of the Jewish population throughout Europe and their economic success has also added to resentment and hate. Some describe the 'Holocaust' as the last great act of Christianity against the Jews.

Dear Paul,

I thought that the Bible states that the Romans killed
Christ. That in those times people could not be crucified
unless the Romans gave official permission. Also, I thought
that the Vatican exonerated the Jews from the killing of
Christ. So why are the Jews still being blamed?

yuyutsu,

You told us that you wanted to live in the outback without
clothes and only primitive weapons and asked for our thoughts.
We gave them to you, including some of the consequences that
those actions could bring. However - whether you choose to
do that or not - is entirely up to you. Go try it and let us
know how you get on. There may be laws against wondering
around naked in the outback on other people's properties -
the police and property owners may have some concerns. As may
park rangers, et cetera. I guess it all depends exactly
where you choose to roam and how you choose to live. And what
the laws are in those regions. And whether you kept spotted
and reported on.

There's so many factors involved in your choices here. Also
I'm not sure which Indigenous people choose to live the way
you're describing. You just may be a leader in the field.
It would probably be a newsworthy experiment.

Now as for Transgender people? They also have to go through a
process if they choose to have their bodiess modified. I
believe that certain laws are in place for that as well. I
have already made my position clear in this discussion. I wish
them well. But it's a complex issue - made very difficult for
them.

Oooooops.

Sorry wrong discussion to Yuyutsu.
My apologies.

Foxy,
I have the feeling the Jewish are unpopular because of their apparent, based on say-so, controlling part in world finance & politics. The entertainment industry appears to be spear-headed by them. This could make many people see it as cultural undermining of society i.e. a control mechanism.

I am more interested in why people - including white people themselves - hate white people, Jewish or otherwise. The latest lunacy comes from UK Labour leader, Keir Sturmer, who has vowed to prioritise non-white voters over Anglo-Saxon voters - in the latter's own country - if he ever gains government.

Disney is brain washing little kids with CRT - black kids screaming about it, an white people looking embarrassed.

In the UK, black people are misappropriating the Englsh aristocracy in television entertainment - even the Queen and Winston Churchill!

More and more TV advertisements in Australia are showing non-whites out of all proportion to their presence in Australia.

In the latest Census, 73% of Australians listed their their ancestors as coming from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

That leaves a mere 27% of multiculturals from a zillion shitholes. But, let's kow tow to minorities.

Dumb whiteys needs to wake up to the fact that they are the ones under seige. Their moral posturing and faux concern for people they regard as worse off than they are is out of date: they themselves are now the target of all the hate and contempt.

indyvidual,

It's quite a conundrum isn't it?

There's quite a few things that don't make any sense
to me. They're criticized as being an "inferior race"
yet they're held responsible for dominating the economy
and taking over the world. Well you can't have it both ways
can you?

Then they're hated for maintaining their "separateness"
yet when they do assimilate they're seen as a threat to
"racial purity" through inter-marriages.

They're seen as capitalists and are accused of being
commies. and they're seen as the "chosen people,"
as well as having inferiority complexes. It seems that they
just can't win.

If the Jews are rich - it means they steal. If they're poor
it means they're ridiculed. If they take sides in a war - it
means they want to take advantage for themselves. If they want
peace - it means they are scared of traitors in their midst.
If they live in foreign lands - they get expelled. And they
can't come back. And so it goes.

It really is hard to fathom.

ttbn,

"In the latest Census, 73% of Australians listed their their ancestors as coming from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

That leaves a mere 27% of multiculturals from a zillion shitholes. But, let's kow tow to minorities."

Charming ...

Half of my ancestry comes rom England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

However, a few years ago I discovered the identity of my biological father - a Jewish New Yorker

His parents, my biological grandparents, immigrated to America from Hungary. I've done DNA, and I'm biologically 50% European Jewish.

Didn't have a clue!

That being said, I deplore Zionist Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people. It's odd to witness such destruction and cruelty meted out by a people who suffered the horrendous consequences of the Nazi regime during WWII

Before people charge in to discuss Jews, they need to decide whether they are talking about religion or race. People adherering to Judaism can belong to any race: they don't all look like Josh Freidenberg - who is clearly a Caucasian. Other Jews can be as black as your hat.

Some people reject the idea of Jews as a race. Others do not. Just work out what you believe before you start pontificating.

You are either judging Jews for their religion or their race, or both. Either way, you are saying that their worth relates to their religion or their race - not their human qualities, which, whoever you may be, makes you a pretty rotten sort of person.

If you are concerned about hatred for the Jewish religion, then you need to know that Christians are the most persecuted people in the modern world, not Jews. If it's a race question, you are clearly stupid and race-obsessed and probably a Socialist.

What is a Polish Jew? Is a Polish Jew different from an
English Jew? Does it even matter? I take people as I
find them. Not by their religion or race or gender or
ethnicity. People often tend to surprise us - and that's
what makes things interesting. Especially when we least
expect it - we can be pleasantly surprised. I have been
very lucky in this regard. I have not had many unpleasant
experiences.

I came across people with numbers on their arms through
friends in Los Angeles. I inevitably learned about the
camps, the Nazi infamy, the lines at Auschwitz and so on.

It coloured my feelings about the world that let this
happen. I began to think that there were some people who
just don't like Jews, and never have, and never will.

My favourite teacher at high school was Jewish. She was
the High School's English Literature Department Head and
instilled in me a love of Shakespeare and English Lit.
She also helped me cope with all the prejudices that I
encountered as a migrant kid at high school.

She was insightful and compassionate and had a wisdom and
open-mindedness that was both reassuring and illuminating.
That's what you hoped for in a teacher.

Dear Poirot - Congratulations on finding out your roots.

One day I hope to find out more about mine. I'm especially
interested in my Russian Gran's family - which I know so
little about. She was such a beautiful looking woman - with
the most incredible blue eyes. Her family were Volga Tartars -
merchants. She was an excellent seamstress. Perhaps one day
I can find out more.

Foxy,
You have some rather valid points there as has ttbn.

It was the Roman Catholic church that initially promoted hatred of the Jews because they did not assimilate into the Roman Empire. Their culture is exclusivist, yet they have given the world the most entertainers and peace prize winners. It has been the recent Christian reformers who have friended the Jews and established their homeland. The Arab world hate the Jews because they were given the land of Israel. If you read the Koran, you will understand the Muslim hatred of the Jews.

I have nieces and nephews who are Orthodox Jews and one a Rabbi, I have no hatred of Jews, they are among my Facebook friends. Several live in Israel and have been educated there.

indyvidual,

Thank you for seeing something positive in my posts.

It's interesting to read different views and a bit worrying.
But of course we have to accept that not all of us are going to
agree or see things in the same way.

According to surveys done we're told that one in ten
Australians believe that some races are inferior or superior
to others. However the vast majority of Australians (84%)
believe that multiculturalism has been good for Australia.

They go on to elaborate that migrants make an enormous
contribution to Australia's economy and provide an estimated
financial benefit of over 10 billion dollars in their first
ten years of settlement.

Plus we owe our accomplishments as a nation to the contribution
of more than 300 different ancestries from the first Australians
to the recent arrivals.

I'm not sure that I agree or think that white people think
they are hated. After all it's predominantly white people
who have ruled this country for decades and hold the top
positions.

Also not sure about the reference to "shitholes," because
as pointed out 73% of Australians still come from England,
Scotland, Wales, and Ireland

Some people seem to have automatic blinkers to protect themselves from things that they don't want to believe.

"In the latest Census, 73% of Australians listed their their ancestors as coming from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

" That leaves a MERE 27% of MULTICULTURALS from a zillion shitholes".

Slowly now - only 27% of Australians DO NOT originate from Scotland, Wales and Ireland. That 27% are of different cultures from the majority, who do trace the origins back to Anglo-Saxon-Celtic countries/culture.

So, multiculturalism in Australia is not really what it is claimed to be. It's a fizzer. There's nothing wrong with a having a small minority of different cultures, but 27% hardly makes the country multicultural.

To give minority cultures their due, they are less likely to approve of 'gay' shenanigans, unlike our disgusting Prime Minister, who has unveiled a a 'gay pride' flag in Sydney, and will march with Wong in a 'gay' parade. Another 'first' by an Australian PM dragging the country down.ggy

There appear to be Jews & then there are Israelis. Israel has enviable systems of discipline that do not appear to be as evident in Jews elsewhere. It seems to me that it is the latter that are inviting the general criticism towards the Jewish.

I just watched a recent episode of South Park.
Cartman starts a rumour which leads to Kyle Broflovski responding to accusations that 'He (a Jew) runs Hollywood'
His reply:
"I'm not even going to justify that with a response! Because repeating a derogatory slur even for the purpose of refuting it can make stupid people think it's valid!"

Does Kyle Run Hollywood? | South Park
(No swearing it's bleeped out, short video 1 min 48 seconds)
http://youtu.be/vLD2Ua5Bnvs

It makes me realise how much of a minefield this topic actually is, even if I be as respectful as I can possibly be I'm more or less asking to be attacked and criticised for anything I say.
I'm not even sure that it's even lawful for me to speak on this topic if things are defined by others as being 'anti-semitic'.

The modern day Fascists has a bit of a dilemma when it comes to Jews. The Fuehrer of old told him he should hate the Jews, but the Fascists also despises the Arab Muslim, an enemy of the Jews. Then there is the question of "whitness", some appear white as snow, like Josh Freidenberg, but some are as black as this chaps hat, no doubt the only black thing about him. You do know some upperty blacks are impersonating the now dearly departed, her gracious majesty QE2, and heaven forbid Winston Churchill as well! But rest assured this chaps reliable sources indicate that only a mere 27% of the population identify as coming from non white shitholes. Ain't we luck to have such white, black hat wearing chaps in Australia.

If we see injustices being done we should speak up
no matter who it may offend.

And watching events in Israel against the Palestinian
people has given rise to violence against Israeli graves,
shops, synagogues.

Miriam Margolyes - the actress puts is so well when she
says:

" So much energy has been focused on the concept of Israel,
the return to Zion, the "Homeland" and when people are trying
to destroy you- and not just trying but succeeding in destroying
you - you cling on to the chance of life and hope and a
continuation of the family and the people and the nation."

" But when Zionists reclaimed Israel they didn't take into account
the Palestinian people who were already living there. What were
they supposed to do ? Were they supposed to disappear?
That's where as a people we Jews fell down. And where Hitler
won. He changed us from being a compassionate nation into a
destructive, uncaring, and inhumane one. The tragedy of the
Palestinians is just as much the tragedy of the Jews.

I think that life is a learning process.

I remember all the biases and prejudices we were
taught growing up. I was raised as a Catholic -
and simply believed what I was taught. The Church
at that time did blame the Jews for killing Christ.
It was only later that the Vatican changed this.

I also remember in the Lithuanian community that Jews
were associated with communism and were not to be
trusted. I'm sure that in the Jewish communities the
feelings against Lithuanians were also not too kind.

And so the biases thrive. It was only after we moved
to Los Angeles that my eyes were opened and that when
we got to mix with Jewish people - that our education
truly began and I as an adult began to question what
I had heard in my youth.

I think that's how to get rid of biases - through education,
through getting to actually know people that you may be biased
against - and find out that we're not so different after all.

Just a thought.

"There appear to be Jews & then there are Israelis".

Being an Israeli is just like being an Australian: it's a nationality, not a culture or a religion.

About a million Israelis are Muslims. Some of the are even in the Knesset. Ten of them at the moment.

Most Jews, 51%, live in the US. Only 30% of the world's Jews live in Israel.

I actually agree with ttbn, Israel is a country occupied by Israelis, Jews are members of a religion, Judaism. The target of conversation Josh Freidenburg, Josh is an Australian of the Jewish religion, which would involve him in some cultural practices associated with Judaism.

Also interesting to note that prior to WWI, the Ottoman Empire had ruled over the Levant for 400 years.

When the British moved up from the Suez Canal through the Sinai, into Palestine and eventually Syria, they were fighting the Turks.

I worked with a Jew once. Only knew he was of Jewish decent because he told me. I might have worked with dozens of others, who didn't tell me. Can people really tell them apart. I have absolutely no feeling about them.

Meanwhile I quote, "I'm sure the forums gang of haters, our merry old men from the nut job department will be along shortly to explain why they hate anyone whose not like them." from the forums greatest hater.

What is it with lefties that they attribute their characteristics to everyone but themselves.

For anyone interested in the contribution of Jews
to this country - the following link is worth reading:

http://aish.com/the-jews-of-oz-a-history-of-the-australian-jewish-community/

And, here is a list of prominent Australian Jewish:

http://racism.com.au/teaching-resources/prominent-australians-jewish-ancestry-include/

My apologies. I left out certain words. Here is the second
link again of prominent Australian Jews:

http://racismnoway.com.au/teaching-resources.prominent-australians-jewish-ancestry-include/

Last try:

http://www.racismnoway.com.au/teaching-resources/prominent-australians-jewish-ancestry-include/

Hassy,

Can't top you, the greatest hater of them all! The bloke who said we should nuke 200 million innocent Pakistani men, women and children, on the pretext of; "get em' before they get us"! You made they very claim on this Forum a couple of years back. Now skulk away like a dog with his tail between his legs!

Then there was your statement once that the Australian Navy should fire 50mm live rounds into refugee boats with women and children on board. What a HERO! There you go tail between your legs. There will be no reply.

Dr. David Adler, Jewish spokesman in Australia, said recently that it is Green Labor Socialists who have the biggest problem with Jews in Australia. Want to find Jew haters? Look no further than Socialists - Nazi or Communist. Of course there will always be people with no particular ideology or culture who will always find someone to hate in order to hide their own shortcomings and inadequacies.

But most people don't hate anyone. They just want live their lives in peace, and let others do the same.

ttbn,

Then you should surprise us all on this forum - and
actually try it - there's a good chap!

" No human race is superior
No religious faith is inferior
All collective judgements are wrong
Only racists make them" .

Elie Wiesel.

Maybe I could start by letting others do the talking for me.

This is Benjamin Netanyahu and the Menachem Mendel Schneerson
- The 'Rebbe', spiritual leader of the Hasidic Movement.
http://youtu.be/rHBiT6eJaQQ

Menachem Mendel Schneerson - The Rebbe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson

They don't want their Messiah (Moshiach) today, they want him yesterday.
http://youtu.be/WnhMntRHqpo

"In Jewish eschatology, the term mashiach, or 'Messiah', refers specifically to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to save the Jewish nation, and will be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_in_Judaism

- Next we should look into the plans for the Messianic age.

Here's Roseanne Barr

Moshiach is here-repent!
http://youtu.be/yfQEAfQQHjw

"...when Moshiach makes its presence known the whole world is going to change and what's going to happen is none the old laws are going to
apply and there will be no more free will..."

Dear Critic,

«none the old laws are going to apply and there will be no more free will..."»

The way I personally see it, when Mosiach makes its presence known, all cats will grow feathers!

But the way the Jewish Talmud sees it is different:

"The only difference between this world and the messianic era is subjugation of the exiles to other kingdoms, from which the Jewish people will be released. However, in other respects, the world will remain as it is, as it is written: “Because the poor will not cease from within the land” (Deuteronomy 15:11)." - http://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.63a.10?lang=bi

As for the ideas of Menachem Mendel Schneerson, most orthodox Jews relate to his Chabad movement as "the religion closest to Judaism".

---

And since I am here, I gave this topic a bit of thought and arrived at the conclusion that people hate... because they want to hate. The rest are just excuses.

---

And since the question of Jesus' murder came up, yes some Jews killed another Jew, using the Romans as an instrument, as a rubber stamp, so why all that fuss about an internal Jewish dispute?

Actually the dispute between Israel and the so-called "Palestinians" is also an internal Jewish affair because most of these native "Palestinians" are of Jewish ancestry whose families never left the land.

Why is the whole world so disturbed when Jews fight other Jews?

---

And since Miriam Margolyes' question was raised, "But when Zionists reclaimed Israel they didn't take into account the Palestinian people who were already living there. What were they supposed to do ?"

Well they WERE taken into account and according to early Zionism, they were supposed to be excited about it and join the Zionist movement as equal brothers and sisters. Theodor Herzl and many others truly believed that they will.

Elie Wiesel.
Foxy,
How uncanny, the german word for Weasel !

What is it with lefties that they attribute their characteristics to everyone but themselves.
Hasbeen,
Yep, the racists bring racism into every discussion at the most minuscule excuse possible, they fear losing if they don't bring up at least racism !
If only we had a National Service to make them think of something useful & positive so they could be useful & positive members of society !

Dear Foxy,

A bit of an age old question isn't it and no real easy answers.

Being forbidden by many Christian countries from working in certain industries often they were left with money lending as a means of making a living.

The various pogroms were often incited by indebt nobility to erase those debts.

The Catholic Church's antithesis to Jews was obviously partly based on their apparent 'unbeliever' status, not yielding to the Christian Lord.

It is obvious from Hitler's Mien Kampf that he was radicalised by a Christian socialism mayor who pushed anti-Semitic ideas on an impressionable young man.

But there are other quite local instances of manufactured or circumstantial hatred such as that in Poland where Jewish landlords serving Russian masters were particularly resented for oppressive rents on the peasant class.

There was also the question of closed guilds and the divisions they elicited.

"Despite the violent opposition of the Christian guilds, the number of Jewish artisans increased considerably and they organized themselves in guilds during the 16th to 18th centuries after the pattern of the Christian guilds, and in order to protect themselves from them. In Prague, there were Jewish guilds of butchers, tailors, furriers, embroiderers, shoemakers, goldsmiths, hairdressers, and pharmacists. In several towns of Poland and Lithuania, such as Brody, krakow, Lublin, Lvov, Lissa (Leszno), and Vilna, there were numerous Jewish guilds, with up to ten in one community."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/guilds-jewish-virtual-library

indyvidual,

For your information Eli Wiesel was a Romanian born
Jewish American writer. A professor, Political activist.
A Nobel Laureate and a Holocaust survivor (Auschwitz and
Buchenwald). He wrote over 57 books.

I have never heard the German term of weasel referred to
this highly respected man.

It does you no credit.

Dear Steele,

Thank you for your input into this discussion.
I'm certainly learning a great deal from all the various
responses. There's much that I didn't know. It is an
interesting journey of discovery. And it is forcing me to
re-examine my own assumptions as well. Especially what we
were taught in school.

Foxy,
To survive like he did he would have had to be as cunning as one. Horrific experiences indeed.
I knew many old men who were in war prisons & after the wars worked & worked & worked & never had the chance to do anything else let alone study to become Academics.
The Jewish excelled in looking after their own hence their successes despite the odds.

The rising levels of antisemitism have been driven by the left.

This is because they are viewed as successful, white, and associated with Israel which oppresses Palestinians who are undemocratic, murderous misogynistic homophobes, but because they are nonwhite, and Muslims deserve our love and protection.

SM,

A bit of what can I say, stereotyping on your part. If you are born a Palestinian you're automatically an "undemocratic, murderous misogynistic homophobes," then to add a bit of sarcasm you say; "but because they are nonwhite, and Muslims deserve our love and protection"

Some might see that as racially motivated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine%27s_Sword

"Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews: A History (2001) is a book by James Carroll, a former priest, which documents the role of the Roman Catholic Church in the long European history of religious antisemitism as a precursor to racial antisemitism. The primary source of anti-Jewish violence is the perennial obsession with converting the Jews to Christianity; an event which some theologians believed would usher in the Second Coming."

indyvidual,

Eli Wiesel was 15 years old when he and his family
were deported in May 1944 by the Hungarian gendarmerie
and the German SS and police to Auschwitz. His mother and
younger sister perished. His two older sisters survived.
The horrors stayed with him all of his life. He wrote
the book "Night," which is worth a read.

"Never shall I forget that night - the first night in camp
that turned my life into one long night seven times sealed.
Never shall I forget that smoke. Never shall I forget the
small faces of the children whose bodies I saw transformed
into smoke under a silent sky" .

There is one thing we need to know about biases. We all have
them. When we read about things in the news - it's usually
in connection with a terrible injustice - like people being
targeted because of their religion, gender, race, or ethnicity.

We tend to think of people who behave in biased ways as bad
people who take extreme actions to exclude or harm others and
none of us wants to admit to being biased.

Many biases are often, at least partly, unconscious. We're
all influenced by our own back rounds, education, experiences,
by the media, by family, friends, and even politics, and powerful
lobby groups. And they all tend to impact the way we inter-act
with the world and tend to perpetrate much of the inequality that
exists in our society.

Dear David,

Thank You for the book reference.

Paul,

Yes, the antisemitic Greens are racist.

The Jews should not feel isolated, our band of Far Right Forum Haters, hate anyone whose not like them, a white Anglo-Saxon male, over 80 conservative. Jews are just one of many on the Far Right hate list, Aboriginals, gays, women, Muslims, progressives and a recent addition Palestinians.

Hi Foxy,

Booked tickets for "Cirque Mother Africa" at QPAC Brisbane, next month, should be a great show, they're touring all over Australia for about 3 months. This will be the 3rd African show we have been to over the years, the other two in Sydney were fantastic.

Colin Barnes was on a tour promoting his book described below when Marie met him,

Jewish Christian Studies - They Conspire Against Your People (kingsdivinity.org)

“This book explores the extent to which the European churches and their theology contributed to a mindset that permitted the genocide of six million Jews during the Holocaust. Were the Catholic and Protestant churches of Europe rescuers, bystanders or facilitators?
What emerges in this historical study is a commonality of word and deed, with the evidence indicating that Christianity in Europe was surprisingly united across time, space and sectarian divides in its view of the Jewish people. The Holocaust was a progression of increasingly lethal measures: vilification, boycotts, deportation, ghettoization, and finally, mass murder.
With the exception of the latter, these stages repeated the pattern of the European churches’ own Jewish policy in the centuries and years leading up to the Holocaust. This pre-existing pattern, based on the theological view of punitive supersessionism (that God had punished the Jews and replaced them with Christianity as his new people), proved decisive in determining the European churches' responses to the unfolding Nazi programme.

Especially important is this study's treatment of Protestant perceptions of the Jewish people. To the absolute extent of church precedent, Nazi policy was supported by both Catholics and Protestants. There was some discontinuity, centring on questions of definition (were Jews defined by race or religion) and final solutions, conversion or genocide.”

I exchanged emails with him. I was impressed that here was a Christian who recognized the role that the Christian churches played in the Holocaust. Although there were heroic Christians like Dietrich Bonheoffer and Franz Jägerstätter who gave their lives opposing Nazism most Christians and Christian churches went along with the Nazi program. Bonheoffer was a Lutheran theologian who wrote The Cost of Discipleship and was hanged by the Nazis in the closing days of WW2 in Europe.

continued

Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Wikipedia
Jägerstätter was a lay Catholic and a reserve sergeant in the Austrian army who refused to serve Hitler and was beheaded.

In Solitary Witness - Wikipedia tells of his sacrifice.
Unlike some other conscientious objectors, Jägerstätter “came from a social background that one would ordinarily not associate with such an overtly rebellious act." Jägerstätter was a peasant living and working in the small upper Austrian village of St. Radegund. A farmer struggling to survive in a village of farmers struggling to survive, when Jägerstätter was “presented with his orders to serve in a war he considered unjust—a war, moreover, which he felt would serve the evil purposes of an intrinsically immoral political regime—refused to comply, and in his refusal accepted the death he knew would follow.”

It was a shock to me to realize as I corresponded with Barnes that although he condemned the version of supersessionism that supported the Nazi genocide he had his own version of supersessionism. Barnes sees Judaism not as a religion in itself but a precursor and preparation for Christianity. Barnes sees Christ as the messiah that Jews have been waiting for and is a missionary to the Jews. Barnes would see Judaism disappear by Jews adopting Christianity.

Although Barnes opposes Nazism it is my opinion that his version of supersessionism is a precursor of the Nazi genocide. I believe that no human is all good or all bad. However, I also believe human beings often have a sense of self-righteousness when they are doing evil. In my opinion Barnes has that sense of self-righteousness.

SM,

The latest 'Newspoll" has Labor with a 10 point lead over the Coalition 55/45 WOW! And your very own Mr Potato Head is as popular as ants at a picnic. BTW The Greens ARE the party of inclusion, unlike your mob of haters!

A little reminder for you, claiming I lie about what you said about Cry Baby Porter;

<<the damages (to Porter) will likely reach several $m with costs > $10m. The ABC will need to make a grovelling apology and fire another 100 employees to pay for it.>>
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 11:30:10 AM

Paul,

That's not what you claimed I said.

You lied, Again.

SM,

Feel free to quote me,

SM said; 'Cry Baby' Porter was in for $10+ million plus compensation, a grovelling apology from the ABC, and 100 ABC staff sacked to pay for it all". Hummmm looks mighty similar to me. Let me correct the word SACKED for FIRED.

As I said earlier, the Jews are looking after their own way, way more than any other cultural group & for that they reap the rewards collectively. Sadly, the envious can't fathom that mentality & their own mentality only goes as far as jealous hate.

Hi SteeleRedux,
"The Catholic Church's antithesis to Jews was obviously partly based on their apparent 'unbeliever' status, not yielding to the Christian Lord."
- I think up until quite recently (last 50 years or so) that Catholics wouldn't recognise Jews, because Jews wouldn't recognise Jesus.

"There was also the question of closed guilds and the divisions they elicited."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement

Hi shadowminister
"This is because they are viewed as successful, white, and associated with Israel which oppresses Palestinians who are undemocratic, murderous misogynistic homophobes, but because they are nonwhite, and Muslims deserve our love and protection."

I think Ashkenazi Jews may have had fairer skin than the Sephardic Jews. I don't know a lot about the grievances between Jews and Muslims, but I think that one belief setting them apart was in relation to 'usuary'.
There is some stuff there though with religions, 'Gog and Magog', can't remember all the details.

Hi david f,
"Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews..."
- I think I read something about the conquest of Constantinople and Crypto-Jews.
Also I think Orthodox Jews may have always had a grievance with Christianity, as they blamed Romans for the destruction of their temple.
To touch on the NAZI's / Holocaust, Klaus Schwabs father worked for Escher Wyss & Cie, a leading NAZI contractor.

Hi Paul1405,
I think the reasons why Jews have garnered criticism isn't just about race, the reasons are many and varied.

Hi Yuyutsu,
Thanks for your earlier response,
As I'm sure you'll know from my previous comment on another thread that prompted Foxy to start this one, I have plenty of thoughts, opinions and questions on this topic.
- There was a time in my life quite a few years back where I followed a path of looking at all manner of conspiracy related topics, and I looked at all the Jewish conspiracy theory stuff, but I'm still thinking about how I can lay these thoughts and questions out in a respectable way without causing offense, which may be somewhat difficult.
It's been a long time since I thought about any of this stuff.

Hi AC,

"I (AC) think the reasons why Jews have garnered criticism isn't just about race, the reasons are many and varied." totally agree. Its easy to stereotype, and then stigmatise and blame a group in society that appear different, have different cultural practices etc. Often those in competition with a minority group economically, will turn on that group as a scapegoat for their own failures.

Hitler blamed Jewish bankers and financiers back in Germany for Germany's defeat in WWI. From that Hitler developed and unbridled hatred for all Jews, and was determined to pay them back for their treachery. Incidentally his basic assumption was wrong.

American folksinger - Tom Lehrer
sang:

"Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Muslims
And everybody hates the Jews".

Why has the undercurrent of anti-Semitism bullied and
boiled and exploded against Jews everywhere time and
again throughout history?

Prejudice it seems is a standard fare of life.

I think basically though it pure and simple jealousy.
God choose them first. After all Christianity came
in second - so of course there is bound to be
resentment and envy. Plus they are a special people
as a result with extra quantities of talent, and they
are more successful than anybody else. So naturally
they will be resented.

Pauliar,

You are still lying through your teeth.

The following link is a Bibliography on
Christianity and the Holocaust:

http://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/christianity-and-the-holocaust

It's a good list on the subject.

Quote of the day:

The most beautiful people I have known are those
who have known loss, suffering, struggle, and have
found their way out of the depths. These people
have a sensitivity, an appreciation, and an
understanding of life that fills them with compassion,
gentleness and a clear loving concern.

Leading the list are - my parents.

One of the contributors to this thread wrote:

"As I said earlier, the Jews are looking after their own way, way more than any other cultural group & for that they reap the rewards collectively. Sadly, the envious can't fathom that mentality & their own mentality only goes as far as jealous hate."

The above is one of the many stereotypes concerning Jews. I have no knowledge that Jews are any more close knit than any other ethnic group. If the person who wrote that has any evidence for the truth of his words he could present it. He just seems to be repeating a stereotype that he heard somewhere.

Dear Critic,

«I'm still thinking about how I can lay these thoughts and questions out in a respectable way without causing offense, which may be somewhat difficult.»

I think there is a way to do it - just speak about yourself.

Saying for example "The bloody Jews killed my God", can be hurtful for some,
but saying for example "I feel hatred towards Jews, I have the urge to kill them" offends no one - these are your feelings, your urges, none can deny, you said nothing about "them", you only spoke about yourself, so how can it offend anyone?!

As I said earlier, this search for "reasons" is a futile waste of time: people hate because they want to hate, the rest are mere excuses. This is quite similar to "The Lord of the Flies" situation where the boys just hated Piggy and murdered him for no real reason.

Words that we use do matter.

And they can be hurtful and offend. Especially if they
are targeted at you for no apparent reason. They have the cringe
factor. And people will judge you by the words you use and the
feelings they evoke in others. If the words evoke anger,
disgust, and other feelings of negativity and bad emotions they
may not want to have anything more to do with you because you
bring down their emotional state.

And saying something like "I feel hatred towards Jews. I have
the urge to kill them." And saying that these words offend no
one? Because they are your feelings? I find this incredible.
Insensitive, and very offensive.

I wonder if this would be acceptable to the original poster
who didn't find his comments about Jews not offensive
when a joke is made that touches on his religion? :

"My girlfriend left me for a Hindu guy.
It's okay though.
He';; treat her better.
They worship cows".

Certainly not as offensive as his comments about the Jews
he hates and wants to kill.

Dear Foxy,

Everyone owns their feelings.

One can even choose to be upset over being told "the sun is shining, the birds are chirping" and nobody can stop them from that.

You wouldn't have started this discussion have you not known that a considerable number of people hate the Jews, that is why you did not for example start a thread called "why people hate blue ribbons?", right?

So suppose one of us here decides to tell the truth about him/herself and confesses to be one of these people, is that a shocking surprise? would it be reasonable to be upset about it? I think one should rather celebrate their honesty and courage!

I explained in my opening post of this discussion
that I started this discussion because earlier another
poster gave a quote about Jews being responsible for
Bolshevism. It got me thinking about how quite a
few people blame the Jews for so many things which are not
accurate and I thought it may be interesting to see why this
was so. It has been quite a learning experience for me. Not all
of it positive.

I don't see hate speech as "honesty and courage," and I certainly
would not excuse it under the umbrella of - "telling the truth".

Expressing hostility and hatred against a group
of people I don't see as a cause for celebration. I find it
dangerous and shameful.

Hate speech is an abuse of freedom of expression. We're free
to express ourselves. But not everything is acceptable as
free speech. The moment people start publicly to target
hostility against a group of people than this becomes hate
speech not free speech.

Hate speech can take many forms from shouting at someone in the
streets to posting offensive comments online while hiding
behind the anonymity of computer screens.

Respecting human dignity is especially challenging in cyberspace.
where borders and border lines are less apparent. However we
must draw the line when hate begins.

Paulair,

Once again you are a liar and a fraud. That's not what I said and you know it. You are quoting yourself.

Shonky,

We were getting along just wonderfully, I thought you were coming over from the Dark Side, then back you go to your old ways of calling me "Pauliar", that is not nice. I quote you verbatim with a 'cut and paste'quote and you still deny it. There are institutions for delusional people such as yourself. In the old days we would have called them 'The Nut House', but fortunately today we are much more enlightened, I would like to refer you to a competent specialist for treatment.

Dear Foxy,

People talking about their own psychology and feelings is not an expression of hostility and hatred.

On the other hand, people who give "reasons" why X is hated, speaking, in fact gossiping, in the guise of objectivity, about what X did and how X lives, could possibly be doing so as a hint for others to hate X, offering them an excuse to do so!

I have no knowledge that Jews are any more close knit than any other ethnic group.
david f,
You have your perception & I have mine ! I could be wrong just as your knowledge may not be what you'd like to think it is.
I tend to go by what I witness !

yuyutsu,

We are free to express ourselves. But not everything is
acceptable as free speech. The moment people start
publicly to express their feelings against
a group of people than this is hate speech not free speech.
And most civil societies have laws against this type of
behaviour, libel, discrimination, laws may apply.

Of course so do the unspoken laws of decency, good manners,
kindness, and compassion - they over ride the selfish excuses for -
"they're my feelings and I'm entitled to have them."
You may be entitled to have them - but not to express them
publicly. Not when they can do harm to others.

indyvidual,

Perhaps if you'd remove your blinkers you may get a
bigger picture? Or get a bigger screen.

Just a thought.

Pauliar,

Again what you claim I said and what I posted are different and your cut and paste proved it.

If you want me to stop calling you a liar then stop lying. I will call you out every time.

Dear Foxy,

What do you mean by the expression "hate speech"?

If this means any speech that contains the word 'hate', then the title of this discussion and most that is in it, is such, "hate speech".

Do you mean that people must not say that word?

Is it alright when one describes their feelings as "I love" or "I am afraid", "I am happy", "I am sad", "I am angry", "I am bored", but just not "I hate"?

I know of no [Australian] law against speaking of one's feelings. Libel is always about speaking about other people, not about oneself and if mental discrimination was a legal crime then we would all be sitting in prison.

One can harm others when they speak badly about them or their loved ones, but never when one speaks badly about themselves.

---

Dear Armchair Critic,

You said that you have plenty of thoughts, opinions and questions on this topic - are you still with us, or are you so afraid of Foxy that you went hiding under a rock?

yuyutsu,

In common language hate speech refers to offensive discourse
that targets a group or an individual ( based on their religion,
race, gender or ethnicity) .

So saying that you hate Jews and want to kill them all, qualifies
as hate speech.

___________________________________________________________________

Now back to the topic:

A lone gunman and avowed anti-Semite Robert Bowers walked into
Pittsburgh's Tree of Life synagogue on Saturday, October 27th
2018 and murdered 11 people, wounding another 6.

The massacre sent shock waves across the nation and around the
globe and came at a time when attacks on Jews were on the rise
both in the US and across Europe.

The words of Eli Wiesel are now more relevant than ever.
Wiesel spent most of his life reminding the world of the
dangers of indifference, and hate, and the importance of
speaking out against injustice, intolerance, and words of hate
and feelings that can incite and encourage violence.

" I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings
endure suffering and humiliation. We MUST always take sides".

Dear Foxy,

«In common language hate speech refers to offensive discourse
that targets a group or an individual ( based on their religion,
race, gender or ethnicity) .»

This is not "common language", this is your newspeak jargon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

In any case, speaking about oneself and one's weaknesses is not offensive.

Sure, it might technically qualify as anything in your confusing jargon since that jargon was designed in the first place for the purpose of sowing confusion.

I read in the Wikipedia:
"Hate speech is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation"

So this definition artificially bundles two very different things into one single definition:
1) Speech that expresses hate.
2) Speech that encourages violence.

Confessing one's weaknesses is anything but encouraging violence, so this eliminates #2.
As for #1, speaking about one's own hating is indeed an expression which includes the word 'hate' so if you like to be smart you could indeed get away with calling it "hate speech", yet it is not one's hate that is being expressed but rather one's remorse, caring and their wish to understand and be free of that disturbing emotion.

You wanted to learn why people hate Jews, or so at least you claimed, but other than mind-readers, the only people who can possibly know the answer are those who actually hate Jews - the rest of us can only speculate, yet you prefer mere speculation over reliable sources which you are not even allowing the rest of us to hear.

-

I already mentioned that in my view, the reason people hate is because they want to hate. Period.

But you, Foxy, try to find the reason in their object-of-hate, in this case the Jews, thus claiming that there is a real something or the other about Jews themselves (rather than about their haters) that causes people to hate them.

That justifies Jew-hating and if that is not hate-speech, then what is?

Yuyutsu,

As I've already told you - I don't see hate speech as
"honesty and courage" and I certainly would not excuse
it as - "telling the truth."
and to me your statements of "I hate Jews and want to kill
them all," I regard as hate speech. To me expressing hostility
against a group of people because of who they are is not a
cause for celebration as you've suggested. It's a cause for
shame because it has done and does so much harm.

I have already explained my reasons for starting this
discussion.

You can try to justify your words and behaviour. I'm not
buying it. I find it contemptible.

The history of the Holocaust shows that targeting an entire
group has far reaching consequences. It can lead to an
increase in xenophobia, racism, and extremism throughout
society, with devastating consequences for individuals,
communities, and nations.

"Someone who hates one group will end up hating everyone -
and, ultimately hating himself or herself. In any society
fanatics who hate don't only hate one person - they hate
every body. There may be times when we are powerless to
prevent injustice but there MUST never be a time when we fail
to protest."

And I will continue to protest Sir, against your
despicable behaviour and your gaslighting attempts
and diversions to try to do a houdini act to sneak out of it.

Not having a bar of it!

Dear Foxy,

«and to me your statements of "I hate Jews and want to kill
them all," I regard as hate speech.»

This was not a statement, but an example that was given in a particular context, spoken by a hypothetical person, not by me.

The exact words, which you changed for your convenience, were: "I feel hatred towards Jews, I have the urge to kill them".

«To me expressing hostility against a group of people because of who they are»

As I explained for the third time, Jews are not hated because of who they are but because their haters want to hate them. If you claim that Jews are hated because of who they are, then you [wrongly] imply that the "reasons" for hating them are real!

«"Someone who hates one group will end up hating everyone -
and, ultimately hating himself or herself...»

EXACTLY. This shows again that the reasons for hating are on the hater's side rather than on the hated side!

«And I will continue to protest Sir, against your
despicable behaviour»

Of encouraging another member of this forum to say whatever they have to say and not be scared of you and run away... I understand...

yuyutsu,

The fact remains - you have defended those words regardless of
who says them - as "telling the truth", and just "expressing one's feelings" and that this action
should be celebrated for its "honesty and courage".

I have vigorously disagreed all along and I gave you the
reasons why.

I'm not interested in further argument with you.

Dear Foxy,

«The fact remains - you have defended those words regardless of
who says them - as "telling the truth"»

That is of course, only if and when that is indeed the truth.

I suspect that if there is anyone here for which that is true, then instead of explaining their situation to us so we can learn, they turned away from this forum and will continue their same conversation on the darkweb instead where no one can help them.

«and just "expressing one's feelings" and that this action
should be celebrated for its "honesty and courage".»

"Expressing" is your word: the word I used was "confesses".
Yes, confessing of hatred requires honesty and courage.

At present, Armchair Critic seems to have fled in fear of you - I wonder how many others you scared away too, how many others did not have the courage and fled away too. Is your goal to empty out this forum?

Anyone else still here?

Good Morning Folks,

Jews in Australia have consistently been at the forefront
of both philanthropy and advocating for human rights.
The major Jewish families are synonymous with incredibly
generous giving across a spectrum of worthwhile causes.

Walk into any hospital, university, museum, National Art Gallery,
National Theatre, and the list goes on, and there are bound to
be sponsorship boards featuring Jewish names.

Many of these families arrived in this country as refugees
from Europe like so many others with only the shirts on their
backs and worked hard to build their lives.

Giving back has been the core of their philanthropic goals
and "giving back" has been important to their sense of identity.
That is the honest truth and that is something worth celebrating
by us all.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I doubt if Foxy has scared off or silenced anybody. Like other discussions on olo this discussion seems to have run its course. I doubt if anybody is enlightened or changed. People restate views they have stated in the past. I believe David Hume was onto a truth when he stated that reason was the slave of passion. Why people hold the views they have is something we will not find out in these olo discussions. We will only find the passions expressed as best as the participants can express them in the language of reason. I thank Foxy for starting this discussion.

I have mostly enjoyed these encounters. I cannot encapsulate my views as nicely as David Hume, but I will try.

Religion is a retreat into a fantasy world. Science is an attempt to see the world as it is. It is easier to justify atrocity in a fantasy world.

Yuyutsu

You say that you "wonder how many others you (Foxy) scared away too, how many others did not have the courage and fled away too. Is your goal to empty out this forum"?

A good question; but I think you know the answer. The woman definitely keeps people 'away': not because of a lack of "courage", but because they know it's a waste of time trying to talk to obsessive, narcissistic ideologues like her, Paul 1405, SteeleRedux and a couple of other Hard Left Lunatics.

If it weren't for them, I believe OLO would attract a more moderate and thoughtful participation from people who know that these loons just set others up to attract attention to themselves, and excoriate anyone whose opinions differ from theirs.

This stupid question, Why Do People Hate The Jews, is another of the woman's 'step into my parlour said the spider to the fly' ploys to enable her to lecture and expound her own views.

If she was really interested in why people hate Jews, she would be asking the people who do hate Jews.

The woman has admitted that she "needs" OLO. What she really needs is the attention and the opportunity to bully people from a dark room.

She and her fellow weirdos will keep it up as long as they keep getting attention.

Learn about narcissists. For the average person, simply ignoring them is the best way to go.

Dear David F.,

Regarding religion, we have been through this many times and I know you hate to hear what I have to say, yet I am now forced to say it again, that unfortunately, so many bad practices pass for "religion" which have nothing to do with religion.

I cannot speak for each and every person or organisation which take people into fantasy-world on the guise of religion, but most of them, I believe, include in their fantasy-world some form or another of judgement whereby those who commit atrocities will be punished by this god or another (fantasy or otherwise besides, I too happen to believe that atrocities will be punished).

Those, on the other hand, who only believe in the physical-objective world to be the true and only reality, find nothing in its laws of physics to stop them from committing atrocities.

This is not to say that either group commits more atrocities than the other. In theory, those who live in fantasy-world are supposed "to be good" out of fear while those who do not, are supposed to commit more atrocities because they believe they can get away with it. In practice, however, people of both groups commit atrocities because they want to commit atrocities. They may or may not be afraid of the consequences but they do it nevertheless.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You wrote: "Regarding religion, we have been through this many times and I know you hate to hear what I have to say, yet I am now forced to say it again, that unfortunately, so many bad practices pass for "religion" which have nothing to do with religion."

You were forced to say nothing. You chose to defend your obsession. What you don't like in religion you deny is religion. I don't accept that. It is a dishonest defense of the indefensible.

Miriam Margolyes points out that Jews have always been
a compassionate people. Living in Melbourne I have seen
this. Lillian Frank who died recently, aged 92 was a strong
supporter of the Royal Children's Hospital as well as
Odyssey House and many other charities.

The Pratt Foundation is another organisation heavily
involved with charity work. It's the Pratt family's Visy
networks philanthropic arm that spans the breadth of
Australia, New Zealand and other parts of the region and
supports initiatives to create positive changes in
communities. Supports the Royal Children's Hospital, the
Bush Fire impacted regions, food-relief during the COVID 19
pandemic, just to mention a few.

Dear David,

I think you're right. This discussion appears to have run
its course. Thank you for your kind words. I explained in my
opening post as to why I started this discussion. It has
been an interesting journey and as I stated earlier - it
has on the whole been a positive experience.

yuyutsu,

My karma ran over your dogma.

Dear David F.,

«You were forced to say nothing. You chose to defend your obsession.»

I see my role on this public forum as defending religion and its reputation, especially from misconceptions that associate religion with all sorts of other, unwholesome, practices, thus vilifying the religious and down the line bringing about restrictions on the freedom of religion.

We seem to share our dislike of these unwholesome practices when any arises in these discussions, yet somehow you seem to insist that these practices are "religious", so it is therefore my duty here to refute that view.

«What you don't like in religion you deny is religion.»

That is, what I don't like in what some people arbitrarily and/or ignorantly fancy calling "religion".

But how do my private likes and dislikes come into this when we have never even touched on them? Perhaps I actually like to live in fantasy-land? Perhaps I secretly enjoy burning witches? love to go on crusades? savour leaving a trail of carnage of infidels? relish the subjugation of women? do you really know me?... Should that make any difference in what is and what isn't?

I do not bundle what I like with a fancy name, nor should you bundle all you dislike with that fancy name, nor should things be classified according to popular view, without any method - doing any of these would be so unscientific.

Instead, I use a systematic method with a clear definition to determine what is religion and what is not religion, a method I explained several times before in this forum. I could repeat my definition and its rationale, but I will spare you that because I sense that you just hate when I do so and have no interest and/or patience to go through it.

Dear Ttbn,

Attention seeking in itself is not a crime.

What bothers me here, is that the presentation of this thread encourages antisemitism. I am not saying that Foxy herself is antisemitic, but trying to provide a list of Jewish characteristics as potential "reasons" for Jew-hatred, implies that the problem is on the Jewish side, that if only the Jews could be somewhat different then the need to hate them would not arise. Providing that list could be completely innocent, yet dangerous.

There can be many excuses for hating Jews, but only one true reason - that one just wants to hate them.

ttbn, you name Foxy, SteeleRedux, myself and a couple of unnamed posters as obsessive narcissistic ideologues, referring to us as loons (short for lunatics) yet you regularly attack anyone whose opinion differs from yours. You should feel well satisfied as this Forum gives the likes of you immunity from prosecution for your obvious abuse. I don't 'recommend comment for deletion'even from you, that is a privilege of yours.

Yuyutsu

No, it isn't a crime, but it's a serious character flaw, and a pain in the backside for other people.

I think that anyone who brings up such a question has a serious problem with Jews - as the questioner has indicated she does over the years of OLO's existence.

Some people try to hide their hatreds/feelings by projecting them onto others. They don't have the courage to state what they think, so they try to get other people to say it for them by asking a 'question'.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I still don't see any difference in worshiping the Greek, Roman and Norse gods and worshiping God. Apparently you do.

May the light of reason shine on you.

Dear David F.,

«I still don't see any difference in worshiping the Greek, Roman and Norse gods and worshiping God. Apparently you do.»

In many cases neither can I.

You see, there are myriads of ways to worship (either), there are myriads of motives, myriads of methods and myriads of different thoughts can go on while worshiping, thus some instances of worship (of either) are religious¹ while others are hypocritical, selfish and not religious at all - I would need to open an enormous spreadsheet to try to classify and explain this...

---
¹ in the sense that they lead one closer to God, regardless whether it is God or god(s) that are being worshiped

Dear Yuyutsu,

I will leave you to your fantasies. Be well.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Enjoy your fantasies.

ttbn,

Why such vilification?

It really is bullying and cowardly especially coming
from a person hiding behind anonymity and making statements
about someone they don't know.
Using derogatory comments snide remarks,
and inferences, and adding assumptions
that simply are not true. I started this discussion with faith
and good intentions. I gave
an explanation in my opening post and continued to participate
further to try to dispel the myths made about Jewish people.

I shall happily stand by my posting record on
this forum and be happy to compare it with yours post by post.
You always seem to find my discussions "stupid." No matter what
subject I choose. And yet you
always manage to find the time to add your own comments to them.
You keep repeating that you shall ignore me but you don't seem
able to stay away.

And no matter where
I post - you will ultimately follow. That to me indicates
rather obsessive behaviour on your part. It needs to stop.

If you can't stop. Seek professional help.
All the negativity that you are constantly displaying is
not healthy. As the old adage says - "Whatever is eating
you must be suffering terribly".

Seek professional help

David f

You are close to finding out whether or not you are right about God, I believe.

ttbn, what a nasty, despicable bastard you are for such a comment about another!

I don't care if I get suspended for call you a bastard, cause that's all you are!

Dear Paul,

You might enjoy this:

I saw a bumper sticker on the back of a car in
Los Angeles once, prior to an election which read:

"Some people are better on paper.
Specifically, that roll by the toilet".

There's something I'd like to say before I choose
to go away. The only way humanity can survive -
is we must get rid of hatred and learn to be kind.

Maya Angelou - the American poet put it so well:

"You may write me down in history
With your bitter twisted lies
You may trod me in the very dirt
But still like dust, I'll rise

Does my sassiness upset you?
Why are you beset with gloom?
'Cause I walk/talk like I've got oil wells
Pumping in my living room

Did you want to see me broken?
Bowed head and lowered eyes?
Shoulders falling down like teardrops
Weakened by my soulful cries?

Does my hautiness offend you?
Don't you take it awful hard
'Çause I laugh like I've got gold mines
Diggin in my own backyard

You may shoot me with your words
You may cut me with your eyes
You may kill me with your hatefulness
But still like air, I'll rise

Out of the huts of history's shame
I rise
Up from the past that's rooted in pain
I rise
I'm a black ocean, leaping and wide
Welling and swelling I bear in the tide

Leaving behind nights of terror and fear
I rise
Like a daybreak that's wondrously clear
I rise
Bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave
I am the dream and the hope of the slave
I rise
I rise
I rise ".

I wasn't going to comment here but just a summary of my thoughts
might be worthwhile.
The Jews were living in many parts of what we call the Middle East.
Their "capital" if that is the word for the earliest times was Jerusalem.
They were driven out by anyone passing by such as The Romans
but they usually came back.
Hundreds of years later Mohammad is said to have founded Islam.
One of his earliest actions was to raid and kill the people of a
village whose name starts with K. Even today Islamists threaten Jews
with the name of that village.
Then in the 700s ad the Moslems invaded Mesopotamia and drove the Jews
and Christians out of the area. That started the Crusades.
The Jews settled in Nth Africa and Europe until the Holocaust and then
many left for Israel and the US.
The Koran calls for the destruction of the Jews in particular and the
rest of us in general. So nothing has changed in 2000+ years and
no one has an answer to the question why do they pick on the Jews?

Dear Bazz,

«Then in the 700s ad the Moslems invaded Mesopotamia and drove the Jews
and Christians out of the area.»

The Jews were never driven out. They only were required to pay the Jizya tax. As a result of wanting to avoid that tax, nearly all these Jews who never left Israel, converted into Islam - and now form the bulk of those who call themselves "Palestinians".

«The Koran calls for the destruction of the Jews in particular and the
rest of us in general.»

No, only of the "infidels" (like me, I suppose). Jews and Christians are categorized as "the people of the book", not as infidels, and therefore only need to pay the extra Jizya tax, not to be destroyed.

---

Dear Foxy,

«The only way humanity can survive - is...»

What exactly do you mean by "survive" and what is your thesis based on?

Facts are that in the long term we know for certain that humanity will be extinct and in the short term, here a few hours passed since your post and humanity is still around despite hatred not going away.

Dear David,

I recently came across the lovely picture book -
"Natalie Portman's Fables," which I'm going to
give as a gift to my grand-daughter because I
want her to become familiar with the classics.

"Tortoise drowned out the
distraction of noise
And plodded along with
Resilience and poise

She knew that she didn't have
Hare's speed or sneer
But also a braggart cannot persevere".

Whilst browsing I came across a poem by Henry Wadsworth
Longfellow "The Jewish Cemetery at Newport". A poem I
was not familiar with - and one I didn't know Longfellow
had written. I was moved by it. It was studded with allusions
to Jewish history. A most impressive work and
containing the Longfellow elegiac tone.

Are you familiar with it?

Hi Bazz,

Thanks for contributing to this discussion.
I appreciate it. I think historically we have to look
at things in context. Plus the fact that the Christian
religion has a lot to answer. And the more research you
do - the more you realize how myths have grown and
unfortunately spread. Education helps deal with some of the
problems. As well as actually getting to know some Jewish
people. I have grown up with Jewish people. They have
been a strong part of my life - especially during the
decade spent in the United States and the University of
Southern California.

Stephen Vincent Benet's poem - written so long ago is
so relevant today. He wrote:

"Oh, where are you coming from, soldier gaunt soldier
With weapons beyond any reach of my mind
With weapons so deadly the world must grow older
And die in its tracks, if it does not turn kind".

This is so relevant for us today.

The United Nations chief said last year that one quarter
of humanity - 2 billion people are living in conflict
areas today and the world is facing the highest number of
violent conflicts since 1945 when WWII ended.

Secretary-General Antonio Guterres cited conflicts from
Yemen, Syria, Myanmar,, Sudan, to Haiti, Africa's Sahel,
and now the war in Ukraine. A catastrophe shaking the
foundations of the international order spilling across
borders and causing skyrocketing food, fuel prices that
spell disaster for developing communities.

Last year we're told that 84 million people were forced to
leave their homes because of conflict, violence and
human rights violations and that does not include the
Ukraine war which has already seen 4 million people flee
the country and displaced another 6.5 million within the
country, according to UN agencies.

Hence my comments about humanity's survival and getting rid of
hatred - is relevant. And with us having nuclear weapons today
the question of our survival becomes very real.

Hi Foxy,

Thanks for that poem and story, shocking how 2 billion of our fellow citizens of the world are living with conflict today.

I'll share a little experience from this week, considering the nark stories the forum haters are oft to post here about Aboriginals. On Wednesday afternoon, were had a training group of 12 Aboriginal lads from around Queensland who are part of a private enterprise group, training these kids (youths) in worthwhile occupations, in this case chefs. The purpose of the gathering was for them to present our charity with the first lot of 160 frozen meals (professionally prepared and packed) which will go out to needy members of the community. It was a terrific gesture from a great mob and we are so pleased to be on board and be beneficiaries of this worthwhile program.

BTW; The organisation is backed by one of Australia's largest companies. Our 3 freezers are stacked full at the moment.

Last night's news had Jews wanting a Palestinian writer banned from Writers Week because of her "hate speech" - i.e speech that didn't suit them. Worrying about who hates who, and trying to stir up other people to worry about it - when they sensibly do not - is BS. All people can be arseholes, and it's a waste of time taking sides with any of them.

In this case, I agreed with what the Palestinian woman said, and she was much better looking than a couple of whingeing old Jews.

Freedom of speech is for everyone.

"In this case, I agreed with what the Palestinian woman said, and she was much better looking than a couple of whingeing old Jews." Now how's that for a comment, what are you going to do ttbn, sit in the front row in your raincoat? Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Dear Paul,

Thank you for understanding my points about hate. The world
wide conflicts are horrific as are the domestic ones we see
on the news - of violence. Be they shootings, bashings
on the street and in parks, massacres like Christchurch,
police shootings, and so on.

I am so happy to learn about your positive involvement with
Aboriginal youth - and providing them with training and skills.
I'm sure your work will result in excellent results all round.
And good to hear that they are getting support from a large
company - Bravo to you all!

Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks in his vault of quotes tells us that:

"In the short term, wars are won by weapons, in the long term, by
ideas. We need new ideas about what it means to honour human
difference while at the same time renewing the global covenant
of mankind".

"To build a society of freedom, you have to let go of hate".

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a controversial
one. Many regard criticizing Israel's policies, laws,
and treatment of Palestinians as anti-Semitic. Yet
there are many Jews living in Israel and around the world
who strongly disagree with the Israeli government's
policies and treatment of the Palestinian people. Which
is something we need to remember.

Freedom of speech is for everyone - as long as it doesn't
become abusive.

Yes Foxy they even have demos on the street. It is called democracy.

Yuyutsu, you are right of course many Jews stayed when the Islamic
Arabs invaded Mesopotamia but also many left for Nth Africa and Europe.
Probably many of the Palestinians might well be of Jewish decent
because the technique is covered by the Koran if they turn their back
on Allah strike them on the neck, or words to that effect.
Mohammad introduced that "offer" into the Koran and it is still effective.
Especially in Africa on a daily basis.
So the Arabs are the occupiers not the Jews, they were there some
thousands of years before the Arabs invaded so as to convert the people to Islam.
While they were at it they diverted to Persia and made the same "offer"
to the Persians and then went onto India and made the same "offer" there.
We can still see the same war going on in Iran and India especially.
Europe is next in line to receive an "Offer".

No one seems to accept that there is no solution to their problem.
The only offer available is;
The Jews MUST be removed or killed from "The River to the Sea" !

Hi Bazz,

"Elie Wiesel's Nobel Peace Prize Acceptance Speech made on
the 10th December 1986 at the Oslo City Hall in Norway,
Today - 3 decades later, his words ring with
discomforting timeliness as we are jolted out of our
generational hubris, out of illusion of progress, and
forced to confront the contemporary realities of racism,
torture, and other injustice against the human experience".

"There is so much injustice and suffering crying out for
our attention. Victims of hunger, of racism and political
persecution, writers, poets, prisoners in so many lands
governed by the Left and the Right. Human Rights are being
violated in every continent. More people are oppressed than
free".

" But alongside the reminder of how tragically we have
failed Wiesel's vision is also the promise of possibility
reminding us what soaring heights of the human spirit
we are capable of reaching if we choose to feed not our
lowest impulses but our most exalted . Above all Wiesel
issues an assurance that these choices are not grandiose
and reserved for those in power but daily and deeply personal
found in the quality of intention with which we each live our lives".

"With the hard-earned wisdom of his own experience as a
Holocaust survivor, memorably recounted in his iconic memoir
"Night" Wiesel extols our duty to speak up against injustice
even when the world retreats into the hide-out of silence".

http://dailygood.org/pdf/dg.php?sid=1329

Hi Bazz,

Regarding the reasons for the prejudice and discrimination
against Jews - its based
on stereotypes and myths that target Jews as a people, their
religious practices and beliefs.

Historically what began as a conflict over religious beliefs
evolved into a systematic policy of political, economic, and
social isolation, exclusion, degradation, and attempted
annihilation.

It did not begin in the Nazi era, nor did it end with the end of
WWII. Its continuance over the millennia speaks to the power
of scape-goating a group that is different and defined as the
"other".

If people don't want to be seen as different then they shouldn't make so many points of being different !

Dear Foxy,

I will look up Wadsworth's poem.

Dear David,

Thank you.

http://poetryfoundation.org/poems/44634/the-jewish-cemetery-at-newport

indyvidual,

This is a racist perception of Jews,

This perception developed with a broader racist view
of the world based on "inequality"of races and the
alleged "superiority"of the "white race" over other
races.

These anti-Semites drew upon older stereotypes to maintain
that the Jews behaved the way they did and would not change
because of innate racial qualities inherited from the dawn
of time.

Foxy,
You're confusing racist with realistic !

indyvidual,

Sadly and unfortunately racists think they are being
realistic. That has been the problem over the millennia.

It looks like this discussion has now truly run its course.
I would like to thank all those who took the time to take
part. I'm not sure if we succeeded in finding answers.
But I thought it was a journey worth taking .

I look forward to our next discussion.

Foxy,
Answers have been provided, you just don't like them !

indyvidual,

It's not a question of my liking or not liking the
answers provided. It's a question of accuracy and
what's true.

And as a librarian, I've been trained to seek accuracy
and truth. Hence this discussion. We need to get rid of
the misinformation and myths.

Dear Foxy,

We are not going to get rid of the misinformation and myths. We have to live with them and try to limit the damage they do.

Dear David,

I agree. We're not going to get rid of the myths and
misinformation regarding the Jewish people. But
hopefully we can limit the damage done by not being silent.
We must speak up.

The following link gives an example of just
some of the myths:

http://enar-eu.org/wp-content/uploads/debunkingmyths_lr.pdf

And as a librarian, I've been trained to seek accuracy
and truth.
Foxy,
Yeah right that's why we have FOI which more often than not isn't available because the truth is too inconvenient !

indyvidual,

We also have excellent public libraries, local,
state and national into which you can walk, and the
"ask a librarian" service giving you access to information.

All you have to do is be willing to learn.

indyvidual,

Not all information is available to the public
under the Freedom of Information Act (FOI).
If a document is exempt under the FOI Act, an
agency or minister can refuse to disclose it.

Examples may apply to documents that affect
national security, defence, or international
relations.

You're welcome.

It almost looks like they want to be disliked !

indyvidual,

Nobody wants to be told how unworthy, unclean, and
greedy they are. Nobody wants to be verbally or
physically harassed. Nobody wants to have ugly
rhetoric spread about them and nobody wants to be
wrongly portrayed, shot at, or have their house of
worship and Jewish institutions vandalised.

Antisemitism is the most ancient hatred rooted in
Christian religious teachings that go back milennia.

What we can do is have no part of it.

See you on another discussion.