Now the dust has settled, and the Albonese Labor Government is firmly established in Canberra, it may be worth looking back at the previous Coalition mob led by Morrison to determine if they are worth trusting with the reins of power in the foreseeable future. Not forgetting the Coalition front bench is made up of mostly Morrison acolytes, starting with Dutton and ending with Littleproud and the guy who would be Treasure Angus Taylor.

Back in March 2022 Richard Denniss of the influential policy think tank "The Australia Institute' had published in 'The Saturday Paper' an opinion piece which highlighted the litany of economic and political lies Morrison had been peddling in his time in office. We should not forget Morrison may have been the mouthpiece for the lies of the Coalition, but he was ably assisted by his cohorts, people like Dutton, Littleproud and Taylor. Morrison may be almost gone, Frydenburg is gone, but the enablers of the Morrison deceitfulness still remain, they are sitting on Dutton's front bench, and are trying to present themselves as an alternative government. For me, not in my lifetime.

Richard Denniss article;

http://australiainstitute.org.au/post/morrisons-economic-lies/

Get ready for Morrison's so-called lies to be over-pontificated by the Leftie bandwagon !
Will the Institute also reveal the part played by uncooperative, sabotage orientated Leftie bureaudroids & journalists ?
Morrison shouldn't have let us down so miserably but he should not be made the scape goat for all that transpired.

It's a well-established fact that Morrison constantly lied and obfuscated and there are a number of exhaustive lists available on the internet.

All politicians lie to some degree but Morrison went much further.

Because he knows he personally can't be trusted he failed to trust others and that's why he kept his extra Ministerial appointments secret from his own colleagues and even his infamous Hawaii holiday was meant to be kept secret from the public except that he was recognised and photographed by a fellow Australian.
Even then he lied about intending to return immediately and even lied about lying.

Hi rache,

Spot on as usual, its a well established fact that Morrison lied, as did his ministers on all matters, social, economic, personal, if it was up for a lie a lie Morrison had one, It was a government of compulsive liars.

This thread is about the future, there we have the Dutton mob today offering themselves as an alternative government. CAN WE TRUST THEM NOT TO LIE? Much of the attention was on Morrison, but he had a bunch of enablers as well, people like Dutton, Taylor, Cash, Reynolds, Littleproud, Joyce, its a very long list. Given the opportunity the very same reprobates that made up the Morrison government would be returned to power. I don't believe the Australian people deserve that, and the Dutton Mob certainly can't be trusted not to lie! Given the track record so far the next election looks a gimme for LABOR.

The Age of Morrison is definitely behind us.

"A bully with no moral compass," is the way government
senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells described Morrison in
her blistering attack. Barnaby Joyce's leaked text messages
told us what Joyce thought of Morrison - "a hypocrite and
a liar," Ï never trusted him," and Gladys Berejiklian
described Morrison as a "horrible person."

We've all read volumes of what the man did wrong. His record
has been exposed. Will Morrison still be in politics after
his term on the back-bench finishes? Will his electorate
re-elect him?

In the speech Morrison gave to his church -
Morrison said - not to place trust in the institution of
government itself. Trust in God. And by taking his Pentecostal
rhetoric to such heights - Morrison may have won the approval
of his fellow church members - but possibly his Liberal MPs would be
less enthused.

Former leaders can still have a meaningful role to play if
they wish. We can only look back to what others have done in
the past (and still continue to do). People from
Gough Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser, Rudd,
Gillard, Howard - and so on.

Former leaders enjoy private offices, staff, and travel
privileges subsidised by the public. They retain their
extensive high-level contacts and enjoy an enormous public
platform from which to speak. If they appear magnanimous,
generous, and "above" daily politics, they can become a
reassuring and encouraging presence within their partisan
community.

But by urging his audience not to trust the institutions of
government as Morrison as done - he's breaking with PM convention
and his belief in "miracles," just may prove to be miss-placed.

Typical of the village idiot to post a polemic from a Left whinge blog and pretend that it has some merit.

How are Albozo's lies going? how about lowering electricity prices by $270 per family? Epic fail.

Juliar didn't manage to keep a single promise, and KRudd lied about maintaining the Pacific solution and maintaining a conservative fiscal position.

Labor and the gangreens don't have a leg to stand on with regards lies or breaking promises.

Hi Foxy,

Just how would you see a Dutton administration? With the same reprobates in charge as were on Morrison's team.

To paraphrase,Heinrich Himmler, with some latitude to the British after WWII; "Hitler was a NUT JOB!, you need a sensible, rational HUMAN BEING in charge of Germany now....LIKE ME!" Heinrich committed suicide the next day.

Morrison to Dutton well what can we say.

The leftie high has already moved past the fulcrum !

As the village idiot points out, Albozo is as useless as Himmler.

Shonky,

Do you notice the similarity between DUTTON and HIMMLER, they both liked uniforms, and they both had bald heads.

Rubbishing people in retrospect is pathetic. Morrison paid for his sins; he can do no more damage. We now need to concentrate on the current sinner, who can do a lot more damage before we can pay him out. If what he has done in the short time he has been PM is anything to go by, we can't be wasting time on the past, and one man who is now a harmless opposition backbencher.

If Labor wants to dig up the past, it should be thoroughly examining the Covid crimes; but, of course, most of those were committed by themselves, so there is no chance of that happening.

As for this constant, childish and tiresome comparison of people with Nazis and references to their physical appearances, I have done some research. People who get pleasure out of doing this suffer from very low self-esteem. They think it will make them feel better about themselves. It doesn't, of course. It just makes them look contemptible and damn stupid.

Comparing people with Nazis?

What about comparing them to Marxists, Socialists,
et al? Isn't that just as bad?

Foxy,

The problem is that the village idiot thinks that Stalin, Putin, and Mao were/are great guys.

Dear Paul,

You asked how would I see a Dutton administration?

Well Team Dutton is trying to soften Dutton's image.
Since becoming leader Dutton has working to distance
himself from his last 2 decades in politics. Political
attacks on Labor have now been largely left to others
in his shadow cabinet. The "man" behind the politics
profiles have been circulated in the media.

However, the problem for Dutton is - people do know
who he is. It's not like trying to create an image for
an unknown entity. Dutton's time in government, all the
conservative interviews, the constant attacks on
"progressive" causes - paint a very strong image of
what Dutton's going to do with power.

After 2 decades in politics, a re-branding of Peter
Dutton is not going to be as easy as putting on a
friendly face and presenting him as someone new. He
would not be the man to win back Wentworth or Kooyong.

shadowminister,

I think you need to re-assess your data on what Paul
thinks.

Yes, Foxy. Calling anyone something they are not is wrong. However, the poster in question does nothing but call people people Nazis in lieu of sensible comment. In this thread, he has reached the sickening stage, possibly because it's the only way that he can draw attention to himself these days. You are not doing yourself any favours by defending his behaviour.

Also, there is a difference between likening the actions of politicians to those of a particular and unpleasant regime - e.g the current government's economic policies being likened to those of Soviet Russia, but that doesn't mean that Albanese and company are themselves Communists.

Paul1405 is becoming increasingly obnoxious and downright stupid. I refuse to address him directly or to try to reason with him because he just gets more bizarre the more he is encouraged by posters who rightly take offence at his absurd behaviour. Average terrible-twos in the middle of a tantrum have more dignity than he does.

ttbn,

I appreciate your taking the time to explain .

I only wish that in political discussions we could
try to stay away from labels. But I guess politics
is a blood-sport as they tell us.

The article Paul bases his opinions on (really just a regurgitation of other's opinions) is dated March 2022. It hasn't aged well.

The main claim is that Morrison lied when saying that there was a limit to how much government could spend on the things the left likes. Well, of coarse, its not a lie but merely a different opinion. But the left and people like Paul have overwhelming belief in their own beliefs and anyone who disagrees with them is obviously lying. It never occurs that a difference is a difference of opinion. Its the totalitarian impulse that we see so often in the left.

But back to the article. Since it was written, the chickens have come home to roost. Rising inflation. Rising interest rates. Housing crisis. Energy prices so out of control that the government, bereft of ideas and oblivious to historic lessons, institutes price controls. Declining real wages.

All the things that those who supposedly lied, said would be the consequences of profligate spending following the WuFlu hysteria.

What do you call lies that turn out to be true?

Foxy

Politics is a touchy subject for many, including me. Ideally, we would just express our opinions, and let others do the same without telling them they are wrong, and we are right. I've said it before that nobody here (in my time) has ever changed his or her basic beliefs and values because someone else disagrees with them. So why get knotted up and argumentative and - more importantly - lower ourselves to call people things that they are obviously not.

In real life, I find that it is better to support people you agree with rather than calling out people you disagree with, and let things take their course. I've tried it on OLO, but arguing seems to be preferred.

OK. If that's what people want. But calling people Nazis (particularly when you don't know what the word means - Nationalsozialist or National Socialist - is pretty dumb, and embarrassing, if you have the sensitivity to be embarrassed which, I suppose, is not an attribute of name-callers and kiddies. The same applies to calling people 'Commos' when they are no such thing.

In the meantime, we should remember that we live in Australia, a democracy free of any real ogres, just often disappointing politicians who we can be removed, by us, when enough of us feel they should be.

ttbn,

You've put things so well.

Thank you.

Foxy,

One time that person was called a communist he appeared perfectly happy to bear that Epithet. He was also huge mates with Lee Rhiannon who was an avowed communist.

He also defends the to the hilt the CCP and as far as I can remember he has not uttered a condemnation of Putin or his war crimes in Ukraine.

This from the holier-than-thou, ttbn; "The Reds are no longer under the bed: they are in Canberra - in government." Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 17 December 2022 9:29:09 AM ttbn, don't be so sanctimonious, you give as good as you get on this Forum.

Then there is the bloke who linked the Albanese's government to the totalitarian regime of Mugabe in Zimbabwe.

The same poster claims; "The problem is that the village idiot (Paul1405) thinks that Stalin, Putin, and Mao were/are great guys." He left off my all time favourites Pol Pot and Idi Amin, please don't forget Polly and Eaddie, they are my kinda guys.

I likened Dutton's miraculous change of character wanting to be accepted as a reasonable alternate government, to the way Himmler offered himself to the British, claiming he was a reasonable alternative to Hitler, when in fact Himmler was as crazy as Hitler. I never said Dutton is a NAZI, he's not, he is a right-wing conservative, who has a bald head and once wore a uniform, there the similarities with Himmler end.

Emotions appear to run high as far as politics go.
And I guess that's normal.

But I have to confess
I hate labels. Labels end up
conveying something absolute and that's hard to
navigate away from once its decided.

Anyway, I believe in giving people another chance to
redeem themselves - because so many times I've made
mistakes in the way I've understood what they were
saying. That's why I find that if I give labels less
power then perhaps people would afford me that opportunity
too.

Sorry, I don't mean to preach. But it does get to me when
terms such as "a good person," or a "bad person" are used.
As if a "good person" moves through life like a saint."
And a "bad person" only does bad things and always will.

Peeling back layers is crucial - if we want to tear them
down. But now I'm waffling on. I'd better just shut up
and move on.

Himmler wasn't bald

Hi Foxy,
To set the record straight,

"He was also huge mates with Lee Rhiannon who was an avowed communist."

What a outrageous lie, the fact is I backed my dear friend Mehreen Faruqi for the number one spot on the NSW Greens Senate ticket over Lee Rhiannon. Lee was always admired by me for her tireless hard work for the Greens, but I felt she was not the right fit for our party.

"He also defends the (sic) to the hilt the CCP" As far as I'm concerned, I see the Chinese style of Communism as what is "best" for China, any alternative would not work at this time. The CCP make plenty of mistakes, and are oppressive, but is there a creditable alternative for the Chinese people, I think not, western style democracy is a luxury not possible yet. I also support "self determination" for both the people of Taiwan and Hong Kong.

As for Putin and the war in Ukraine, I am very much a pacifist, and what has happened to both Ukrainians and Russians is appalling.

I could sling crap at shadowminister and his predecessor Shadow Minister over several things they have said and supported over the years.

SM is not sure what I am, a Communist or NAZI;

PaulNazi,

You were Brenton's (Tarrant) neighbour and advisor on how good communists kill ethnic minorities.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 24 October 2022 11:06:59 AM

Makes the startling claim that I advised the Christchurch mass murderer Brenton Tarrant how to kill 51 innocent people in Christchurch NZ 15th March 2019.

Woke Greens scarily akin to that 1939 German Youth Club ?

"What do you call lies that turn out to be true?"

In this case, the fantasies (yet more fantasies) of the economic liberate left.

But there has been a lot of this going on over the last few years.

It was once a 'lie' that the authorities spied on the Trump campaign. Its now a known truth.

It was once a 'lie' that the dreaded WuFlu originated in a lab. It is now the majority opinion.

The 'lies' in the article Paul relies on are, a mere none months later, being shown to be truths.

Indeed it is good practice these days to assume that something termed a conspiracy theory by the left, is merely a truth that has yet to be proven.

Considering the mentality of the bureaudroids he had to try & run the show with, I'm not that surprised that he did what he did !

Dear Paul,

I apologise for not responding to you earlier.
I had to wait because I'd used up my quota of posts.

Thanks for explaining things from your point of
view. I understand your frustration.

There are a couple of facts (truths) that need to be
made clear:

That ICAC in not a kangaroo court. That accusations of
dishonesty are not sledging. That Rules and Laws are
not red tape. That bribery, influence peddling, cronyism
and pork barreling are all forms of corruption and need
to be weeded out of our political system.

The difference between the major parties is that Labor
offered to govern for all Australians while the Coalition
was heavily invested in a different product. A government of
the people by the factions and vested interests.

The federal election was a test of the integrity of the
Australian people. And the voters made their message clear.
Australians did not choose a group of self-interested
bullies with little interest in maintaining the integrity
of the democratic process.

" The CCP make plenty of mistakes, and are oppressive, but is there a creditable alternative for the Chinese people, I think not, western style democracy is a luxury not possible yet."

Its the standard claim by the authoritarian apologist to say that, while they personally support democracy (oh gracious me, yes!), it is, regrettably not quite right for these other people. Those other people are of coarse a diverse range but all united by two things - (1)democracy isn't (yet) right for them, and (2) communist oppression is right for them.

It is a crock. Its just a way to excuse communist dictatorships while suggesting its really just for the good of the oppressed. ("“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...." C.S.Lewis).

It is also highly racist. Basically it says that, while we are smart and moral enough to exercise the 'luxury' of freedom, those brown and yellow fools just aren't up to it.

But the justification has been around for a century or more, so it must work for the apologists - at least in their own mind.

" I also support "self determination" for both the people of Taiwan and Hong Kong."

Tibet?

Xinjiang? The home of the Uighurs who are currently experiencing a genocide at the benevolent hands of Xi and his (totally moral!!) henchmen.

In the 20th century, up to 200 million people died of the benevolence that is communist oppression. That some still fell it is possible to defend that oppression is both surprising and, rather evidently, unsurprising.

Dear Paul,

Thanks for setting your record straight.

The record needs to be set straight. Especially
regarding our former PM Scott Morrison and his
government. They have purposefully fostered
divisions within Australian society.

They have
promoted misleading media content, made false
accusations and stirred up moral outrage wherever
they could regardless of whether it was dealing
with genuine issues and with no care who it
damaged along the way.

Whether it was gender. race, religion, sexual
orientation, place of birth, wealth or lack of it
the Coalition and Morrison have been eager to
weaponise any issue to appeal to the worst in
human nature and garner a few votes.

Unity, forward planning, addressing community needs
and good governance meant nothing when a desperately
incompetent political party was willing to sink so low
under a leader how revels in his cleverness of
tapping into politics of hate, moral outrage, and
division.

"Whether it was gender. race, religion, sexual orientation, place of birth, wealth or lack of it the Coalition and Morrison have been eager to weaponise any issue to appeal to the worst in human nature and garner a few votes."

Wow! What's next? Accusation of child sacrifice and witch burning?
Just thinking up a list of everything you consider bad and then attributing to your foes, is somewhat fraught when you don't have the slightest attempt to link any said accusation to anything approaching evidence.

I find it passing strange that those expressing (fake) moral outrage at the supposed lies of their foes manage to whistle past the most egregious example of political lie in this country this century....
"There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead".

All governments lie, although I'd call it massaging the truth. All politicians massage the truth. All PM's put the best spin on their views and actions. Only the truly dishonest express outrage against some such massaging of the truth while utterly ignoring other such examples.

I don't know what it is that the government hopes to achieve - apart from revenge - against its defeated enemy.

"They (Morrison & Co)have purposefully fostered
divisions within Australian society". (Foxy).

I think an explanation is required there. I can't recall such a thing happening. Was it anything as bad as the divisiveness of the proposed 'Voice', which will divide people by race - proudly in the Constitution. No mucking about trying to hide it.

" ….misleading media content, made false
accusations and stirred up moral outrage wherever
they could regardless of whether it was dealing
with genuine issues and with no care who it
damaged along the way".

Any examples, Foxy. Did I miss something? Or are we talking about the shonky media, not shonky politicians?

" …the Coalition and Morrison have been eager to
weaponise any issue to appeal to the worst in
human nature and garner a few votes".

Gee. That sounds awful. It's a wonder that I missed that.

Look: the Morrison government wasn't a good one. Morrison was a very bad PM. There is a review on why they lost to be published this week. But the main reason that the Coalition lost was MORRISON.

The electorate (including me) has punished Morrison and his government and, given the totally unaware comments from what is left of the Coalition, we will not see them back in power any time soon.

Therefore, the Albanese government is making itself look petty and vengeful with its pointless show trials about a man and a party who have been dealt with in the usual democratic way - by the only people who can punish such people, and always do, the citizens of Australia.

ttbn,

Australians were put to the test and they voted in
favour of Labor and integrity-minded Independents.
which did justice to the nation. You may not have
seen the lies, corruption, economic ruin, and misogyny
that made the case for the Coalition to be voted out.
For 9 years
the LNP government dismantled,
corrupted, outsourced or sold off the public institutions
that we relied on (public sector). Or that Morrison did
not silence Craig Kelly's COVID misinformation (utterly
irresponsible) - which undermined the health advice.
And the list went on.

The strategy of the current Coalition in Opposition has
not changed. It's to continue its campaign of deliberate
malicious lies. Dutton's reply to the Albanese government's
first budget speech had 15 falsehoods.

The thing is these tactics no longer work. And the sooner
the Coalition realizes it - the better their chances of
winning voters.

" Mirror, Mirror
Standing straight
Who excels at
Fear and hate?"

"Dutton, Dutton
Truth be told
Fear and hate
Are getting old!

I must have had my eyes and ears closed for 9 years, Foxy. But, I had given both political major parties away long before that, so it's not worth my while arguing.

I found an amusing example of how misunderstandings can occur :

Last night, I watched a session with Nick Cater, John Howard and Alexander Downer in front of a Melburnian audience. The broadcast had captions.

John Howard said that he thought that Dan Andrews was an very good communicator, but he ABHORED his policies.

The captions, however, said that Howard APPLAUDED Andrew's policies.

The two words would have sounded the same to a computer, which went for the wrong word.

I can imagine deaf people out there who watched it being convinced that Howard is fan of Andrews :).

Paul,

There is little real difference between communists and Nazis. The communists, however, managed to kill vastly more of their own citizens.

The communists are extreme socialists as were the Nazis.

Foxy,

Forgot to ask.

What were Dutton’s 15 falsehoods?

"Australians were put to the test and they voted in
favour of Labor and integrity-minded Independents."

“A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.”

Booker T. Washington

"There are 2 ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down,
the other is pushing up."

"Character not circumstances makes the man."

Booker T. Washington.

SM,

"There is little real difference between communists and Nazis" I must agree, but I put it this way; There is little difference between one form of political extremism and another form of political extremism (communists and Nazis). One can be radical and not be an extremist. When the extremists come to power their ideology becomes the normal, and the moderates are then seen as the extremists. To be locked up and then shot. I'm sure if Albo and ScoMo had turned up in Berlin in 1940 and sat down with Hitler and explained why his regime was extreme. At the end of their discussion, Hitler would have said; "These two crazy EXTREME SUBVERSIVES, have them taken out and shot immediately!" The same deal if they had gone to Stalin in Moscow with the same spiel. " "These two crazy EXTREME SUBVERSIVES, have them taken out and shot immediately!"

BTW; I believe in the "Horseshoe Theory of Politics", as the extreme right, and the extreme left become more extreme, they also become more alike.

Hi Foxy,

"Dutton's reply to the Albanese government's, first budget speech had 15 falsehoods."

That is the crux of this discussion its not about yesterdays man Morrison or his government. What it is about is those now offering themselves as an alternative government, Dutton and co, are the exact same enablers and liars of the Morrison government. Morrison may have been the front man, the TV personality at the time, but Dutton and his shadow ministers of today were the sycophants, cronies and liars who enabled Morrison to lie, and run down Australia. Should Australians trust this Opposition with even the prospect of government in the foreseeable future. I believe not, and despite anything they say about their image or persona, the leopards in my opinion have not changed their spots.

An election today would see Labor win in a landslide.

Foxy, thinking she can run off to Mr Google to find another quote (any quote!) by Booker to refute my point, demonstrates that she completely misunderstood my point.

A couple of things to take from the thread....

Despite all the righteous indignation, not a single Morrison lie has been revealed.

Despite all the righteous indignation, not a peep about the lie of the century from St Julia.

Despite all the righteous indignation, the CCP apologists can't/won't offer a rationale for their apologia.

Despite all the righteous indignation, it seems that the worse thing they can come up with is that Morrison failed to sufficiently infringe the freedom of speech of Kelly ie he wasn't authoritarian enough to satisfy the closet authoritarians.

All very illuminating.

Dear Paul,

There's a dossier of lies and falsehoods of Scott
Morrison. They can even be fact-checked.
It tells us how Scott Morrison manipulated the
truth and then he even lied about lying.

Mhaze accuses me of running to Google. Perhaps he should
try doing it. Instead of
claiming that "not a single Morrison lie has been revealed."
Reading some books may also help. Niki Savva has one out
currently - "Bulldozed." in time for Christmas.

But all this is so predictable and familiar.
Remember mhaze's defence of Trump?

So of course to him:

"Truth isn't Truth,"
(Rudi Giuliani in an interview on "Meet the Press.")

And Morrison does not lie. And the fact that he got
kicked out - is fake news.

What about Dutton’s 15 falsehoods?

Something for you to read ttbn.

http://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/new-parliament-new-coalition-leaders-same-old-lies,16942

ttbn,

There's more at the following:

http://crikey.com.au/dossier-of-lies-and-falsehoods

http://themonthly.com.au/the-politics/rachel-withers/2021/12/2021/1636691711/lies-and-emissions

Bernard Keane has a book - "Lies and Falsehoods: The
Morrison Government and the New Culture of Deceit.

Niki Savva's book - "Bulldozed," documents the Morrison
Government.

cont'd

http://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/australian-values-and-the-deceitful-dogwhistling-of-peter-dutton,10228

http://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/reactionary-succession-peter-dutton-australias-new-opposition-leader,16431

I don't see Dutton’s name mentioned.

The real 'untruths' come from activists such as Crikey and embittered self-promoters like Niki Savva; and, of course, the mainstream media.

The Opposition needs to start challenging these people, and the government, and forcing debate.

I recently watched a debate called 'The Mainstream Media Is Not To Be Trusted', in front of an audience that had said that they did trust the media by a small majority - 52% - 48%.

After the debate, that audience decided it did NOT trust the media - 68%-32%.

People believe all sorts of tosh they see and hear, particularly if it suits their own bias; but when things are investigated and debated rationally with examination of the facts - not beliefs and emotions - they always change their minds.

ttbn,

Paul and I have given you just some of what's on the web.
There's much more there - including books that have been
published. You can also fact-check the data as well as
check for media bias ratings of what's being reported.

We have no control over what you choose to believe - however
on the law of averages and looking at the last federal
election results - Australian voters kicked these guys out.
That in itself speaks volumes.

ttbn,

I gave you a link to the 'Independent Australian' and Alan Austin concerning Dutton and his falsehoods peddled in his budget reply speech. Its unlike the far right media you familiarise yourself with would 'rat' on their boy Dutton. The mainstream media mostly see Dutton as irrelevant and don't bother reporting his falsifications.

For an exercise lets take one blatant falsehood Austin said Dutton made.

“Australia emerged from the [COVID-19] pandemic in an economic position the envy of most nations with debt lower than any other major advanced economy.”

According to the latest data from the World Bank’s development indicators, advanced countries with lower central government debt than Australia’s include New Zealand, Sweden, Switzerland, South Korea, Taiwan, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Uruguay, Turkey, Malaysia and Peru.

To add, name any world leader that made a statement that they envied Australia's lower than their nations economic debt. Do you dispute what Austin has said; there are name by the World Bank 13 countries with lower central government debt than Australia.

The balls in your court! Of course you will simply ignore, as you do

Foxy

What I am unable to understand is: why can you not simply list the 15 lies that you say Peter Dutton told.

Please tell me what the lies were.

Hi Foxy,

ttbn is trying to be obtuse on this, pretending to be unintelligible on the matter, did I say pretending, erase that, he's not pretending, he actually is.

ttbn,

They're listed in the link Paul gave you.

Paul, Foxy,

The "Independent Australia" is a Blog filled by authors often with zero understanding of what they are writing about and whose work is never checked for factual accuracy.

Alan Austin is one of the worst offenders whose articles are riddled with wild inaccuracies and has been sued for libel. The only reason that he is referred to by left-whingers is because of his virulent attacks on conservatives.

Foxy

It was you - nobody else - who posted in these pages that Dutton told 15 lies.

Your references are irrelevant, as you would obviously not be referring to those that didn't agree with you (and the ones you use are probably where you got the information in the first place).

No matter what your sources say or think, you are the only one who has accused Dutton, on OLO, of telling 15 lies. It was not someone on Google who cannot be questioned or debated here. You took on the responsibility of making the accusation to your fellow posters. It is up to you to carry the can. Will you do that, and prove your sincerity by listing the lies? Or do you prefer to broadcast propaganda for other people?

This is becoming increasingly sad.

It seems that Foxy and Paul can't understand that there is a difference between a lie and a differing opinion. Of course, Foxy simply refuses to delineate ANY supposed lie, relying as she usually does on claims that the articles Google finds for her are definitive without either understanding said article or trying to show why its definitive.

At least Paul makes an effort to FINALLY, after who knows how many posts, offer an example of an alleged lie. He fails of course, but Paul even attempting to defend his claims is a major break-through. (Take note Foxy).

So Paul finds some obscure leftist (Alan Austin)who lists 15 lies in Dutton's speech. none of them are lies, just different interpretations of the facts, but this subtlety eludes Paul, Foxy and the author of the article.

Hilariously Austin complains that he "has searched for a mainstream media outlet that has exposed even one of these [lies] — without success." It doesn't seem to occur to any of our geniuses that these other outlets (even The Guardian!!) don't call them lies because...drum-roll....they aren't lies.

They are different spin on the same data. Take Paul's belated example. Austin claims that Dutton lies about the level of debt and uses a database that doesn't even have 2021 data. It also has 1442 different data series and Austin uses 1 (yeah One!!) of these. The others don't tell the story he wants. He's also careful to talk only about central government debt which, most economists will tell you, is the least accurate of all the versions of the data.

So what Austin says can be supported by a subset of the data (at least for 2020). But what Dutton says can also be supported by the data (for the more recent and relevant 2021). (I suspect I've lost Foxy/Paul by now).

As I've said, the authoritarian proclivities of people like Foxy and Paul are such that merely disagreeing with them is the equivalent of lying.

In the adult world that's not the case.

mhaze

Well said, and very reasonable. It's a pity that unreasonable people cannot be reasoned with; ideology and slogans is all they can manage.

shadowminister,

"Independent Australia" has been rated high for
factual reporting due to proper sourcing by
Mediabias/FactCheck. And Alan Austin is a freelance
journalist with a wealth of experience who's
living in France. He's worked not only in Australia but
in China and now Europe. He'also written for OLO.

ttbn,

As I told you earlier - there is a dossier of the lies
and falsehoods on the web and in books on the Coalition.
From Morrison to Peter Dutton. Their lies have been
documented. Paul gave you the link with the information
that you had asked for from an article that Alan Austin
had written of Dutton's lies. I used it on page 6 of this
discussion to show that the Coalition's tactics of trying
to spread fear and division not longer works with voters.

That does not come under the heading of spreading propaganda
as you imply. I also made it clear that it's your choice
what you choose to believe - and gave you extra links
for additional information. What you choose to do with it
is up to you.

mhaze,

More gaslighting from you.

Has it ever worked?

OK Foxy. If you insist on continuing to hide behind other people there is no point in going any further. I'm prepared to deal with OLO posters' sincerely held opinions, but not those of some unknown wacko on Google.

ttbn,

Alan Austin has been published in most Australian
newspapers. He's an OLO author as well.
And if you don't approve of the sources that I use
by all means use the ones that appeal to you

"As I told you earlier - there is a dossier of the lies
and falsehoods on the web and in books on the Coalition.
From Morrison to Peter Dutton. "

Yes Foxy has asked Mr Google to give her links to stories about Dutton/Morrison lies and then she pretends these are definitive. But she's terrified to mention even one of those supposed multiple lies because she suspects their all rubbish and she'll be exposed with all due alacrity.

Paul at least had the fortitude to have a crack at mentioning one of these supposed multiple lies. Unfortunately it was a crock. This supposed lie is about a Dutton claim concerning the 2021 deficit but the data used to try to show it was a lie is based on 2020 data. I'm not sure Foxy/Paul will understand why that's problematic. Also the data used from was from a website that had access to 1442 different series of data but used only 1 of those and even that wasn't the correct one.

Still this list of 15 lies wasn't meant to be accurate or defensible. It was meant to fool the innumerate and anxiously gullible. With Foxy and Paul it succeeded admirably.

mhaze,

As usual your gobbledegook sounds plausible, but as usual its nothing more than gobbledegook. You should join with ttbn and Indy and make up your own new words to describe things, they do that, but unfortunately to date they've had no success with the new language of theirs, it adds nothing to their argument, and makes them look even more indecipherable and stuipid than usual. ttbn has been praising Indy for inventing the word "bureaudroid", he thinks it will be in the 'Oxford Dictionary' very soon. Flushed with success the lads are going to invent a sh!t load of new words! You should joint in, and give then your new words of wisdom.

Dear Paul,

There's evidence and there's bulldust and a
reputable award-winning journalist like
Alan Austin will not see it as his job to
give bulldust equal time.

As for mhaze?

He continues to try to change the truth. It's
to be expected from a Trump supporter.
His tactic now has become smears about you and me.

All par for the course.

Keep on posting.

Yes Paul I know it seems like gobbledegook to you, in the same way a Linear A would. So let me dumb it down for you. In your one example of a lie, Dutton referred to the economic situation as regards 2021. Your hero tried to characterise Dutton's claims by using 2020 data. The liar here is Austin, not Dutton.

That you and Foxy fell for it is an entirely different conversation.

Foxy wrote: "His tactic now has become smears about you and me."

This from the same Foxy who wrote:
"Do you by any chance have brown eyes? I suspect you have.You're so full of it!"

The lack of self-reflection is breathe-taking.

Foxy,

Alan Austin's reputation is shocking. His journalistic experience stems from his stint running a church rag. Since leaving Aus, he has sat in France writing fact-free polemics for the IA posing as IA's authority on economic issues, which considering that he has zero qualifications in this field made his blogs a running joke with holes in his logic you could drive a bus through.

As for him being award-winning, I can find no record of this.

Linking to this phoney does you no favours.

mhaze,

Austin claimed it was the latest data as of 7th Nov 2022 Dutton's budget reply speech was about 10 days earlier. Therefore Dutton would have had the same data available to him when making his assertion that; "(Australia has) debt lower than any other major advanced economy.” I see three possibilities when making that statement; Dutton had not researched any data and made the claim ignorantly off the top of his head, and Austin is right. Two Dutton had access to more recent date which showed a remarkable turn around in Australia's fortunes and the statement is indeed correct and Austin is wrong. And three Dutton had access to the same data and chose to make a false statement (lying) about it, which would vindicate Austins claim Dutton is a liar.

mhaze the part of Dutton's claim you haven't addressed; "Australia emerged from the [COVID-19] pandemic in an economic position the envy of most nations" Was that simply an inaccurate claim by Dutton as there is no evidence that Australia is the economic envy of "most nations" Dutton didn't even name one such nation. With no references it would seem Dutton was making frivolous claims even promoting falsehoods to gain political advantage.Dressing up opinion to appear as facts when no evidence to support that opinion is lying. Agree?

Dear Paul,

mhaze wrote - "the lack of self reflection is breath-taking."

If mhaze doesn't like what people post about him all he has
to do is improve. He reflects what he is!

__________________________________________________________________

shadowminister,

My image of Alan Austin differs greatly from yours.

You wrote earlier that he'd been sued for libel.

My understanding is that Austin wrote an article for
Independent Australia defending the Australian Human
Rights Commission and its then President Gillian Triggs
from attack.

Austin's colleagues and legal advisers thought that Austin's
article was legally defensible primarily of it being true.

The pursuit of Austin for defamation charges was discontinued.

Here's more of what is known about Alan Austin:

Alan Austin has written for many media outlets and been
published in most Australian newspapers and online publications.
For decades, from the late 1970s Austin focused on
Indigenous Affairs and visited more than 80 Aboriginal
communities by light aircraft.

He wrote an influential Uniting Church report on prisons in
Victoria in the 1980s which led directly to the jailing of
prison officers for drug offences. Austin worked for seven
years for World Vision and for eight years with ABC Radio
and Television's Religious Broadcast Unit.

While at the ABC Austin received several awards including the
Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, the United Nations
Association's Media Peace Award and the prestigious New York
Festival of Radio.

Austin has worked overseas as a journalist in Indonesia, China,
and now France.

His special interests are the news media, religious affairs,
and economic and social interests which impact the disadvantaged.

Paul,

I suspect this is going to get too complicated for you but Austin, in his article, has a link to the site where he got his data. If you follow that link you'll find that it doesn't contain any data on Australia's debt position in 2021. The most recent data it has is 2020. That is the data Austin uses.

Surely even you can understand that using 2020 data to try to disprove what was said about the 2021 situation is at best fraught and at worst an out-and-out lie.

I give the journo the benefit of the doubt and assume he's as innumerate as his readership .... but who knows?

Foxy,

I understand that you reserve the right to smear anyone who doesn't immediately agree with your unresearched ravings while whining when you are similarly treated.

I understand it .... I just won't accede to it.

mhaze,

You can't continue to keep on doing what you're
doing and expect different results.

mhaze,

What data was Dutton using to make his claims? Between 1st January 2022 and 27th October 2022 please name the world leaders who said, their country envied Australia's economic position , there are about 200 nations in the world, I wont ask you to name over 100 so the "most" is correct.

Based on your logic, the information in the 2021 Census is out of date in 2022, but it is the most recent data available, unfortunately being out of date it must also be unreliable, and useless.

BTW, I have done some checking, there is nothing that indicates the 13 advanced countries named by Austin as having, "lower central government debt than Australia’s (in 2020)" in the following period had a miraculous turnaround in their economic fortunes that put their debt beyond Australia's. Do you have evidence to support that possibility.

SM, are you saying Alan Austin is another one like your folk hero 'Beat Up' Bolt? Whose every utterance is seen as "manna from the political heaven" by you, even if its a pack of lies!

"the information in the 2021 Census is out of date in 2022"

The Census? It has nothing to do with it.

"but it is the most recent data available"

Well, no there is plenty of 2021 data available. The author just chose to ignore it.

"I have done some checking,..."

Oh, this'll be good. Well show us your sources. Let's take Lithuania. What was it's debt to GDP ratio in 2020 as compared to 2021 and the equivalent numbers for Australia? Note: I already know the answer and it ain't good for your case.

mhaze,

Comprehension please, the point I was making just as you believe data on debt from 2020 (Austin claims its the latest available date at the time of writing) and its relevance to Dutton claims in 2022 budget reply that "(Australia has) debt lower than any other major advanced economy.” As Dutton failed to give a reference, the question is where did he get HIS later data from that would support HIS claim. Do YOU have it. I'm very interested to see it.

The Census was simply an analogy, nothing to do with debt data. If you are going to claim 2020 data about debt is irrelevant in 2022, and it would be if there is new later data which makes the 2020 data obsolete. The Census was taken in 2021, so any thing claimed based of that is irrelevant in 2022, because it can be claimed its out of date.

"Well, no there is plenty of 2021 data available. The author just chose to ignore it." Can you produce it and show how it supports Dutton's assertions.

When I said checking, I was checking for countries that said that they were envious of Australia's economic performance. I Googled; "France envious of Australia's economic performance". Nothing, couldn't find anything Macron seems didn't say that, then tried in the place of France I tried Canada, Britain, New Zealand, United States, China, Japan, then I gave up, none had expressed economic envy of Australia. Where did Dutton get that from? Can you explain.

Foxy,

AA was sued for defamation because what he printed was defamatory and false. The suit was discontinued because as I understand AA settled, and Twaites won his case overwhelmingly.

AA's politics has always been on the extreme left and his association with the truth has always been very loose to the point that when writing on economics and finance it bordered on fantasy.

You only quote AA and IA because they reinforce your prejudices.

Paul,

I can't help but notice that you're trying very hard to move away from your original claims and now trying to find an entirely different alleged error that might stand the slightest scrutiny.

"I was checking for countries that said that they were envious of Australia's economic performance..."

Dutton never said that they'd expressed envy, only that they would be envious. I know that others are envious of my good looks without them actually saying it.

As to the original claim, which you are now trying to run away from as fast as those aged legs can manage, "As Dutton failed to give a reference, the question is where did he get HIS later data from that would support HIS claim.". That isn't the point. You and your journo hero made the claim that Dutton was wrong but if you don't know which data he was using, how do you know he was wrong? But the point is that when he made his point, the then most current data supported his point. So NO LIE.

This isn't going anywhere. You and your Vulpes-ian sidekick made wild claims that you had no evidence were true. Those claims have been shown to be a million miles away from established fact and are, as with most of what you write, unresearched assertions that you just hoped were right.

Fin

shadowminister,

I don't quote Alan Austin to re-inforce my prejudices
as you claim. I simply provided what I considered
useful facts and information as a reply to your claims
on the man. You obviously have your own prejudices
regarding him

cont'd

I simply provide what I consider useful facts and
information. And I did that with Alan Austin because
as I understand it the man has never had an adverse
finding against him by any court, tribunal and
professional body anywhere relating to factual
inaccuracy or any breach of media codes of ethics.
Not once. Not ever.

mhaze,

I didn't make any original claims, as you put it. When ttbn was demanding a list of Dutton lies I posted a link to the Alan Austin article in the Independent Australian. Austin claims Dutton is a liar, and provided supportive evidence. You failed to debunk Austin evidence.

You have failed to prove Dutton innocent of lying. As a rusted on Coalition supporter you would deny anything that brings Dutton into disrepute.

I contend that the Opposition led by Dutton is made up of liars who were members of the Morrison lying government, Morrison's enablers. These people now seek the endorsement of the Australian people at the next election. I don't trust these liars, and they are not worthy of Australia's trust!

Foxy,

Using your criteria, Morrison, Dutton, and Bruce Lehrmann are trustworthy because they haven't been sued or convicted.

Paul hasn't been sued yet lies constantly.

Get real.

AA is a bullsh1tter of note.

Sm,

Other than you and a few other rusted on conservatives on this forum, can you name those who say Alan Austin "is a bullsh1tter of note". And those reprobates from Sky After Dark don't count.

Several books and publication have declared ScuMo' to be "a bullsh1tter of note", and now Dutton is showing himself to be the same.

shadowminister,

Morrison and Dutton have been found guilty of lies and
falsehoods by a very high court - the court of public
opinion. As for Lehrmann? There's still a question mark
hanging over his head. We'll have to wait and see what
the future will bring regarding this man.

Paul

"You have failed to prove Dutton innocent of lying."

Like your Vulpes-ian sidekick you have got the burden of proof the wrong way around. But then the ideology you adhere to has been doing that for over a century.

I've proven that there is data that supports Dutton's claims AND that the data used to pronounce him a liar is utterly flawed if not deliberately deceptive.

"As a rusted on Coalition supporter ..."

I've told you several times I didn't support the coalition this time around but you keep ignoring it. I guess that with your ALP uber alles mindset, the notion of someone swapping their vote as required is beyond your comprehension. Oh well...

The fact is I'm profoundly disappointed by the post-Morrison Libs and hope (and expect) that Dutton will fail and will be replaced by true liberal. But that doesn't mean I lose all cognitive abilities and when I see utter highly partisan gumph such as your claims about lying, then I call it out.

I suspect you and your sidekick won't understand that thinking.

The ultimate lie by an Oz politician, in my life time was .....

"There will be no carbon tax under a parliament I lead". This by guess who from which side of the house.

Hey Pauley, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Think on it for a bit.

Scott Morrison has
told us he's never lied. And he's said that
Australians aren't interested in those types of
"juvenile debates ".

Peter Dutton told us that:

"The reality is people (in Melbourne) are scared to
go out to restaurants at night time because they're
followed home by those groups, home invasions, and
cars are stolen and we just need to call it for
what it is. It is African gang violence."

As we can see - politicians don't lie, they misspeak.
And they don't steal. They misspocket.

We need to get the language right.

Peter Dutton is just the man to lead the Liberals
soul-searching!

"The ultimate lie by an Oz politician, in my life time was ....."

Hasbeen,

I pointed that out earlier but the ALP-uber-alles crowd completely ignored it.

I think its already long-since been memory-holed by those of a certain leaning. Never happened as far as they're concerned.

Interestingly I looked for vision of St Julia saying there'd be no carbon tax, but couldn't find any. Neither Google nor Bing found the vision but were anxious to show me the misogyny speech even though I queried the carbon tax. So it seems it might have been memory-holed by more than just Paul/Foxy.

Eventually they'll be denying it ever happened.

"There's no way a GST will ever be part of our policy.
Never ever. It's dead."

(Former Prime Minister John Howard).

Oh wow!

Foxy does remember some stuff. Funny that she still avoids the Gillard lie. If you don't mention it, it didn't happen.

Howard's lie, (if you want to call it that)was from 1996.
But I did say biggest lie this century. Seems your maths is on a par with your recall.

Why stop at Scomo?
The government and police force has been lying to the entire country for 2 weeks. Why?

RE: QLD Police Shooting

Queensland Police admitted they'd visited the Train property multiple times (its not clear how many times exactly) throughout the year, looking for former school teacher Nathaniel Train.
He was being investigated for crossing a state border illegally during Covid lockdowns carrying firearms registered to him.

It's likely the Train family felt harassed, had (likely) travelled to attend protests against the lockdowns, were trying to evade arrest and had become extremely paranoid.

(Not that this takes away from their actions)

The fair question is why did the Police lie to the press and public for 2 weeks, fail to mention the warrant for Nathaniels arrest and pretend their last visit was a welfare check for a missing person?
Following up on a warrant and jumping a locked gate intending to find and arrest somebody isn't a welfare check.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-22/qld-police-shooting-wieambilla-warrant-nathaniel-train-/101800366

It's no wonder people engage in conspiracy theories when the powers-that-be don't tell the bloody truth.

Meanwhile the country is stuffed anyway.
What happened to Masculinity?
http://youtu.be/4BtweobVUug

And Foxy,
This is what democracy is all about (open your eyes)
It's about pushing through legislation against the will of the people
(or manipulating them to go along with a new agenda)
i.e. Bring in a new leader that will do the bidding of the 'Klaus Schwabs' AGAINST the interests of the citizens
- And make the people think it was their idea.

On the 13th Dec 2018 Scott Morrison and his former
Attorney-General Christian Porter stood before the
Australian people and promised a robust, resourced,
real system that would protect the integrity
of the Commonwealth and Public Administration. They
promised to establish a National Anti-Corruption
Commission.

It never happened.

Instead they voted 31 times to block it being done. or
even discussed. Meanwhile scandal after scandal went
unchecked and all we got were endless excuses and an
"exposure draft" that even the Centre for Public Integrity
denounced as a sham designed to cover up corruption
and they called it the "weakest watchdog in the country."

We had a government that lived in fear of accountability and
what a powerful independent and transparent anti-corruption
commission would reveal.

Beyond a draft exposure bill the Morrison government never
ever introduced legislation to parliament. Nor did it
attempt to negotiate a way forward with Labor or the
minor parties or independents despite receiving hundreds of
submissions and after years of consultation the Morrison
government refused to budge from its original plan announced
more that 3 years ago.

Scott Morrison promised a commission with teeth. He was not
entitled to say that he had "honoured" his side of the deal
or to blame Labor for his failure to deliver.

The legislation to create a National Anti-Corruption
Commission was introduced to Parliament by Mark Dreyfus on
28th September 2022.

Just watched 10 minutes of the ABC News; It's all lies.

Re the Trump thing
No-one brings up his now deleted tweets where he said he didn't want any violence or the newly released Twitter files where Democrats ordered Twitter executives to remove / suppress stories harmful to their campaign.

Experts investigating rare side effects of vaccine
The ABC presenter ask about side effects of Covid Vaccine - long Covid
- and the person interviewed Prof. Katherine MacKenzie says
"Oh I'm not worried about that..."
Then its all the standard crap about helping 20 million people blah-blah-blah
- Move on nothing to see here -

Then you have Albo saying he'll work with Nationals leader now that they've stated they won't support The Voice.
How about you support the Australian people by telling them what it IN THE LEGISLATION that you actually want them to vote for?
- Still ain't seen any fine print.

Meanwhile.. this would be fun - Trumps revenge...
Rep. Jamie Raskin said a GOP majority could install Trump as speaker of the House.
http://www.businessinsider.com/raskin-gop-majority-trump-speaker-of-the-house-2022-11

Can't even have ads without some WEF / LEGO partnership to 'Rebuild the World'

ORDO AB CHAO - 'Order out of Chaos' Motto of 33rd degree Masons
http://www.universalfreemasonry.org/en/article/ordo-ab-chao
- You can't bring in a new era without destroying the old one first.

Might as well just sit back with my box of Cadbury favorites and watch the whole world go to hell in a bloody handbasket.

It's Christmas Eve - and a good time to reflect on
the year that's coming to an end. I wrote in my
discussion - "'tis the season," what a tumultuous
year it's been. What with the pandemic, the Queen's
Jubilee, and then her passing, King Charles III,
our federal and state elections, the war in Ukraine,
and the list goes on.

But hey, we survived.

Despite all our problems, we should count our blessings.
I've received cards from family and friends overseas
who are excited about the wintry weather there and
all the old Festive traditions.
It's hard to get excited about snow, reindeers, and
the old traditions, when you're celebrating Christmas
in the Southern Hemisphere trying to enjoy long hot
days by the beach or at home feasting on seafood,
pavlovas, and summer fruit. Spending time (if we're
lucky) with family and friends, and spoiling the grandkids.

So while some of us may be hurtling towards incontinence
and immobility - lets count our blessings and wish each
other a Merry Festive Season and a Joyful, Healthy, and Safe
New Year!

And as I tuck into my Christmas Lunch on Christmas Day
I shall raise a glass (or two) to all of you.

I wish you joy all through the holidays
I wish you good luck and success that forever stays
I wish you the love of family and friends
And finally I wish you happy, healthy days that never end!

Be kind to each other!

I see that the ABC was censured for lying in its show on Fox News.

So I guess Foxy can't use them as a reference.

shadowminister,

The Four Corners Fox News
documentary was found not to have violated
impartiality standards. Perhaps it would help
if you were to read from some other sources apart
from the Murdoch Press.

Dear Paul,

Before I go here's a link that may be of interest:

http://afr.com/politics/the-9-reasons-the-liberal-party-thinks-it-lost-the-election-20221222-p5c8a7

Take care.

Thanks Foxy,

I would say the critique by Hume and Loughnane was fairly succinct when it came to the abject failure of the Liberal Party at the last election.
One of the most important factors for a political party seeking government, is the perception by voters, of their trust they put in the party leader, and to a lesser degree his team of followers. Women didn't trust Morrison, young aspirational voters didn't trust Morrison, there's 80% of voters, your potential voter base put at risk. As for the Liberal team its value as a support group was zero. Policy was non existent, so they had noting to sell. Dutton is in the same position, not to be trusted by voters.

My good friend in Sydney, Taiwanese Australian aged in her 30's, conservative, anti communist, but has fears for her family back home. Although she sees the CCP as a threat to Taiwan, she also doesn't trust America to help her country, and therefore her family. Lib thinks the people of Taiwan are going to be treated like the people of Ukraine, not considered when it comes to the politics. Because of the
rhetoric from the Liberals pushing war, she normally votes Liberal, but this time she voted Labor.

p/s One thing my friend believes is the people on the mainland don't see Taiwanese as an enemy but as family, and they are opposed to their government using force against their family.

Foxy, Merry Xmas to You and All.

Thanks Paul.

I'm glad that you liked the link. I thought it was
fair.

I can relate to your friend from Taiwan.
I remember under the Soviet regime in L:ithuania when
any Lithuanians living overseas were painted as the
enemy - and we looked at them with suspicion as well.
Until travel was finally allowed and we got to know
each other. All of a sudden we did indeed become "family."
Brothers and sisters.

Experience challenged the propaganda.

Merry Christmas everyone.