Roger Noriega has provided a very one-sided commentary of the causes of Haiti's troubles.

Alternative analysis paints a different scenario as a backdrop to ongoing Haitian poverty.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/97/32135.html

Hiati is another example of the human misery that the development agencies create!

Have a look at Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate . The mass destruction of precious environments is being committed int he areas where the population is doubling, trippling or even quadroupling every generation.

Runaway population growth is THE PRIMARY CAUSE of poverty and environmental destruction, both are the result of un-sustainable birthrates.

Australians are having only 1.8 children for every 2 adults - we are slowly suiciding. But the environment is suffering most where there are 6 or even 8 children for every two adults.

To save people from poverty, and to save the environment, we need to promote free contraception, marriage and sexual equality - not in Australia, but in the poor world.

Meanwhile I know several lovely older Australians watching their families die out because their children have missed out on having children.

We need to provide more carrots for middle/professional class adults to become parents.

In Australia, the baby-bonus works very well for welfare and drug-dependent women to become mothers. $6000 is a lot of money to a drug addict. But not for middle-class families. CHILDREN SHOULD BE TAX-DEDUCTABLE !

Most women WANT to have a family, but tragically fail because few men are willing to commit to them. This is a tragedy.

But men are not commitment-phobic, they are just AFRAID. Every man knows the long-years of long hours most dads put in at the office, and the seemingly in-evitable divorce, that will rob them of their most loved children and everything else.

MAKE Families tax-deductable. Wipe out the stupid Family Tax A, B, baby bonus, maternity leave, childcare benefit and rebate, single mums pension, and all means-tested payments... wipe them all out and instead two-parent FAMILIES should be tax deductible! Income splitting between patenrs and kids!

This will have the wonderful effect of encouraging fatherhood, reducing divorce and allowing the middle/proferssional class to have the families they want, while releaving the financial pressure on welfare-dependant and migrant women to become beby-factories - children they struggle to manage and look after.

PartTimeParent@pobox.com

It is not just pop increase that creates poverty in Haiti.Mostly it is the debt created by our Global Banksters.They give money to corrupt regiemes who enslave their own populace in debt.The international finance system is a fraud.They create money from nothing and don't allow sovereign countries to do like wise.

If Haiti was to create it's own currency then the international cartels will not then trade with them or allow them to buy the goods and machinery needed for development.The Marfia have nothing on this lot.

*If Haiti was to create it's own currency then the international cartels will not then trade with them or allow them to buy the goods*

Nonsense Arjay. Any third world country can print whatever it likes.
What confidence others have in what is behind that paper, that is
the question, not about cartels.

After all, its a free world, people can name their terms, when they
buy and sell. I would personally trust Haitian currency no more then
I would trust Zimbabwean currency. But you of course, are free to
trade with those countries and accept their banknotes. Go for it
Arjay!

Witht he population doubling every 25 years, Hiati needs twice as many schools, hospitals, roads and, somehow, farmland... each generation...

This is impossible. As real estate agents say about land, "God's not making any more of it". Just think how hard it it is for our wealthy, relatively in-corrupt, governments to pay for our existing roads, schools and hospitals!

Countries with rapidly growing populations have to build infastructure not only for the existing people, but has to keep duplicating it for the population growth! A double burden!

What about the poor kids, whos parents are unable to give their kids enough food, let alone education... These people DON'T WANT to have 5 kids... but without FREE, VOLUNTARY long-acting contraception, they can't control their fertility, and continue to suffer.

China's rapidly growing wealth is due to it's wise (but im-morally imposed) one-child policy. Thailand and Iraq have both similar success, and are seeing the beginnings for rapid wealth increase (and poverty reduction)

How? they have simply given fee, contraceptive implants that last for several years, promoted this service and let people choose a happy small family, over a large, starving one.

But somehow, population management is strangely an 'evil' in the professional culture of aid organisations

ptP,

It's not how much land, but what you do with it. Look at Singapore and Hong Kong, with far less land than Haiti but far more prosperous. In fact, most of Europe is much more populated than Haiti. In the optimal circumstances, more population means more skilled and healthy people, using less area/person, contributing and not taking from the national economy.

I enthusiastically urge all those who want to tell developing countries to stop their population growth, to put their money where their mouth (and fingers) are, and get snipped.

Joe

Loudmouth, I remind you that Singapore and Hong Kong have very
low birthrates. Fact is if you are popping out 5 babies per female,
feeding all the little darlings is one thing, educating them another.

Now you can do all that, if you have money, earned from your higher
intelligence, skills etc. Haiti does not qualify, so less land
per peasant, means more hunger, less education etc.

So name me a country which thrives, which has a high birthrate.

Yabby,
I couldn’t agree more. But don’t you know it’s not their fault -- it’s ours .

See here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3349#79866
“However, much of the increasing African population is a consequence of interference in the underdeveloped world by external religious and cultural influences”. [ apparently it’s our fault for interfering and disrupting the Eden–like balance!]

and then, we have those on the otherside of the fence who want us to interfere more:
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/01/23/118051_ntnews.html
Apparently we have an --international obligation –to provide back-up services for those who either haven’t planned for the morrow or, who’ve spent all their funds on more worthwhile things, like … a large standing army, mansions on the Rivera for the upper classes & more children for the underclasses.

Another malignant apology for imperialism. Aristide, the first elected president of Haiti was overthrown by Bush 41 to be replaced by a murderous cocaine military. Clinton allowed Aristide to return after Haiti was opened up to subsidised agribusiness. Most aid, like most aid/loans before and after the dozens of US invasions and occupations were notations in the banks of New York. Haiti had to close its schools to make its first loan payment, just as we in the US are closing schools and libraries to keep banksters to big to fail profitable.

Yabby,

I suppose I could make a comment about the futility of your mum popping you out, along with so many other whelps. But I don't like ad hominem arguments, certainly not of such a contemptible nature. Of course, massive population growth in very poor countries is unsustainable, but there are ways and ways: of course, Haiti needs a phenomenal amount of infrastructure, far better schools and more universities, and as every demographer knows, to educate the women is to ultimately reduce the birth-rate. Of course, Haiti needs to upgrade its economy from scabbling agriculture towards more industry and services, thereby providing jobs at higher levels. Of course, this is going to take a hell of a lot of effort and funds and time. I'm not saying it's easy. But there is a pathway (a very long and difficult one) from Haiti to Hong Kong.

As well, as social planners know, unless a state can provide security for the elderly in the form of pensions or super, young people will keep having many children, to support them if they ever reach old age. Old age pensions = (eventually) fewer children. Higher education for women = fewer children. A move from land-based economy to skills-based economy = fewer children.

But is it possible for all you arm-chair w@nkers, given Haiti's terrible and tragic condition, to get off their backs ?

Joe

Loudmouth, your double-dipping “I could make a comment about the futility of your mum popping you out, along with so many other whelps. But I don't like ad hominem arguments” is in character with your arguments about population pressure.

“Of course, massive population growth in very poor countries is unsustainable.” Then you align yourself with religious and other fundamentalists who lobby against the efforts of caring people who have spent time amongst those deprived communities in attempting to provide opportunity to their women to access the means to elevate their desperate position. Referring to these dedicated people as armchair w@nkers is at the sewer-end of “ad hominem arguments”

Colinsett,

Thanks but you have misunderstood what I wrote completely: please read it again carefully. I have been an atheist all my life and will remain so. I have complete sympathy and respect for the people you rightly praise: my reference to w@nkers was to those contemptible people who seek to blame Haiti (and so often, African countries as well) for their tragedies, and who make callous and even racist suggestions off the tops of their heads.

People are precious, every one (to paraphrase Fred Hollows) is a person, a person with a brain and potential to contribute to the betterment of humanity. Well, except for those w@nkers. The beautiful people of Haiti deserve far better than the hand they have been dealt and I have nothing but admiration for anybody who seeks to improve that situation.

Joe Lane

Loudmouth, if my mom had not popped me out, I would not know a thing
about it, so it frankly would not matter. In fact, if she'd stopped
for a cup of tea first, most likely another of the billions of sperms
would have won the race, I would not be here either. So what?

I remind you that there are plenty of countries who have reduced
their birthrates, without having a pension plan in place. Fact
is that in Haiti the Catholic Church reigns supreme, so I'd
be surprised if much effort was made to supply the popultion with
any kind of family planning, or abortion services for that matter.

*People are precious*

You are starting to sound like the religious here, Loudmouth.
It sounds impressive, as you pontificate. Yet with most religions,
we know its mostly hot air. I have yet to see them flog off the
splendours of Rome, to feed the starving babies.

Have you sold off your computer yet, to feed another starving baby?

It's all about contraception and feminism

Hiatians know kids are hard to feed, but they don't have knowledge or money for contraception...

China forced a one-child policy on it's people and the result is the greatest increase in wealth in human history.

Thailand and Iran promote contraception and give free hormone implants (implants last years). They have achieved similar population management and are creating future wealth for their people.

Meanwhile, the "middle class" western nations are suiciding. Apart from immigration, we are all dying rapidly.

Whole families are dying out... People who should be grandparents are instead dog-owners.

Why are middle-class societies suiciding?
What's wrong with us?

One... word - Feminism! Islam and tradition cultures are "anti-feminist".

Everywhere you read that "if you educate women, then fertility decreases" ("educating" women is a code-word for feminism). Why is it wrong to say "if women get too much power, fertility keeps dropping below replacement"?

Middle-class men are refusing to become fathers... the "fatherhood strike" is resulting in large numbers of our best and brightest women being unable to find a man willing to become husbands and fathers... professional firms are full of desperately single attractive childless professional women.

There aren't enough professional men for all the professional women because 6-out-of-ten graduates are women, due to feminism in school education.

These 6 women are hoping to marry one of the four professional men...

But one marries his secretary, one is gay, one is on the fatherhood strike, leaving only one available man for these 6 professional women.

The 'fatherhood strike' is the result of 30 years of feminism... men know that marrige and divorce means long years of long hours at work... carrying the double-load of paying the mortgage and missing out on time with their kids. Then wifey divorces them and keeps everything... If you get the kids you get everything...

Men aren't commitment "phobic" they are afraid... men are saying NO!

This is a tragedy for men, women and is the begining of the end for western democracy... destroyed by feminism.

Hi Yabby,

I'm sure that you would appreciate my reluctance to go into details about my relationship with Opus Dei and His Holiness, and how much and how regularly I'm paid to propagandise on their behalf. But as an atheist of probable Protestant ancestry (I'm not sure), it's not really likely to be the case.

I love good conspiracy theories, but if we thought about it, they are really not much more than relatively sophisticated ad hominem arguments - if you don't like some bloke's arguments and don't want to get too insulting, you pin some conspiracy on him/her: it saves the bother of sticking to an argument.

I do believe that people are precious, even overseas ones, Yabby, even Black ones, as a marxist and as an Internationalist who believes in the brotherhood and sisterhood of all human beings. Everybody has potential to contribute to the wellbeing of humanity, if they have the opportunities that you and I have had. But I suppose Internationalism is so passe these days.

As for donations, I have just sent off a cheque to MSF. My wife passed away a couple of years ago and I have helped to set up a Scholarship in her name for Indigenous women like her, in their second or later year of university study, enrolled in a mainstream course. Can I assume that you would like to make a contribution ? Or are you too - excuse the ad hominem - just another armchair w@nker ?

Joe Lane

Loudmouth, I certainly did not claim that you were religious, merely
letting the rhetoric fly, as they do.

Fact is that in places like Nigeria, some mothers try to give their
babies away. In Ethiopia, some feed them to the hyenas, when they
feel that they can't cope with yet another one. IMHO, if all
babies were wanted, most of these problems would vanish. Good old
family planning globally could achieve this.

Back to the point. You seemingly place more value on your ability
to fool around on the internet, using your computer, then to sell
it, to provide food for yet another starving baby, which you have
told us, you deem as precious.

Fair enough, I could be wrong, you could be posting from the library.

What you do in your armchair, is your business and does not concern
me lol. Whatever gets you through the night, Loudmouth :)

Part Time Parent: if you commence a separate posting entitled 'Feminism' I will be the first or second to submit some comments as to how I view the related term 'Feminism' from a female point of view and as a mature non-materialistic and non-academic female and mother. I sympathise with your views if you have been burned by a spouse; however, one should never generalise, just as I do not generalise about fathers nor about the term 'Feminists'.

Career climbers is a term I use for public servants climbing up the corporate ladder be it male or female. Those females wishing to marry public servants; good luck to them. I do temp contracts in the public service [casually for 17yrs] and never bothered about marrying a public servant nor attracted to one. Married a farmer instead. I know plenty of female public servants who have married tradies and non-public servants, who are quite high up the corporate ladder. Interesting to view your source of information.

From the CIA World Factbook statistics, it is easy to calculate that Haiti has an average of 0.086 hectares of arable land per person with the existing population and that the population has a 38 year doubling time. Vaclav Smil at the University of Manitoba has calculated that 0.07 hectares of arable land on average is required to give an individual a nutritionally adequate vegetarian diet. This assumes modern farming techniques, but no expensive chemical inputs. I have seen a UN Food and Agriculture Organisation report that puts it at 0.053 hectares with the full panoply of modern agriculture.

It ought to be obvious, even to Loudmouth, that Haiti has a problem with growing enough food and would have a problem even if it were led by the greatest statesmen in world history. Of course, Haiti is run by a kleptocratic elite and has massive social inequality. It qualifies as a failed state and is kept going with international food aid. See

http://www.earthpolicy.org/index.php?/book_bytes/2010/pb4ch01_ss5

People like Loudmouth always bring up Singapore and Hong Kong. Those people would starve if a wall were built around their territory. They get by because they produce goods and services that they can trade for food. One person in a peasant village may be able to support his family by working as a shoemaker, even if he doesn't own any land, but they can't all do it. People only need so many shoes, and someone has to grow the food.

It would take a massive effort on many fronts to turn Haiti around, but family planning has to be part of it, as Yabby has pointed out.

Hi Divergence,

I agree with you, there is a very long road from Haiti to Hong Kong, but my point was that vital items in the backpack are education, particularly for women, if population growth is to be reduced, and economic development away from agriculture, towards manufacturing and services. Difficult ? Yes, yes and yes. Impossible ? No.

Yes, if international blood-suckers (including the Church) get off the backs of the Haitian people, if corruption can be controlled and aid directed to specific tasks and projects, if the human abilities of the people are built on, and if people around the world give them the support they deserve, after hundreds of years of exploitation and misery.

Joe Lane