Don't agree with the author on a lot of issues, but think he's spot on here.

The Israeli political leaders do not want to live here. Tamils who are a threat to our security do want to live here. Whatever the “…crimes against humanity and war crimes” the Israeli’s might be guilty of (and those ‘crimes’ could very well be in the minds only of those who hate Israel) they have no relevance to threats to Australia’s security.

It’s unbelievable that anyone could compare the two groups of people from the angle of who we allow into Australia on a permanent basis.

It’s also ludicrous that anyone could say that whatever ASIO thinks about threats to our security “means nothing”. The “Far Right” Liberal Party belief, of course, compounds Greg Barn’s inability to think along anything but ideological lines.

As for “The Australian” criticising Rudd’s failure to protect Australia’s borders, well, Rudd has failed to protect Australia’s borders! We had 60 boatloads of illegals last year, and we have had 4 or 5 already in the first two weeks of this year. Rudd deliberately dismantled our border protection, so ‘The Australian’ talks more truth and sense than Greg Barns does.

If Mr. Barns wishes to have his say about two particular Israelis who visited Australia or anything about Israel in general, fair enough. But to link the visit to which illegals Australia does or does not let in is complete nonsense, particularly when absolutely nothing is known about the ID – destroying illegals who are generally all allowed to stay, even though immigration has no way of knowing whether they are telling the truth or not.

< …let's make it clear that just because ASIO assesses someone as a security threat means nothing. >

I don’t think that’s fair comment Greg. Their assessment has certainly got to mean something. Even if it is far less than perfect, it has got to be a whole better than no assessment.

There might be a history of occasions on which they got it wrong, but how many times have they got it right? Probably vastly more.

Who’s going to undertake a better assessment than our national security intelligence organisation?

Clearly, your comparison between allowing possible Tamil rebels to live in Australia and allowing Israeli leaders with a checquered history to visit has got some major flaws.

Firstly; ‘live’ and ‘visit’ are two very different things.

Secondly, those leaders were here in good will. We can’t be so sure about the goodwill of the others.

Thirdly, would it be in Australia’s security interests to alienate Israeli leaders by banning them from visiting. I don’t think so.

Some questions for Leigh.

(1) Why do you think asylum-seekers are "illegals"? People smuggling (facilitating the unauthorised arrival of 5 or more people) is illegal, so the boats are illegal. But arriving on such a boat and claiming asylum under the Refugee Convention is perfectly legal. This may seem like an anomaly, and does add a hint of complexity to the situation, but it's hardly rocket science.

(2) In what way does the arrival of unarmed asylum seekers compromise Australia's border security? What risk do they pose? When was the last time a boatload got through our border security undetected and disappeared into the community?

(3) How are the four Tamils in question threatening our security? The government is now looking for somewhere else for them to go, and they are now under guard on Christmas Island. Have you seen the Detention Centre there? It makes Gulag Archipelago look like Disneyland. How do you think they could escape from there?

(4) Do you think all asylum seekers destroy their ID? What about those who never had ID in the first place, because they come from places where registration of births is irregular and inconsistent, or from places where applying for an ID document immediately puts you under suspicion and your life at risk?

(5) Do you really think asylum seekers are "generally all allowed to stay"? If so, what is the UNHCR's independent determination process for?

Given that the Sri Lankan civil war is now truly over and the LTTE has pretty much given up its hard to see how they could affect security.

ASIO isn't the smartest organisation. It has got these things wrong before.

>> Their assessment has certainly got to mean something.

no, their assessment is worth less than nothing. exactly because people think their assessment is worth something.

I am not aware of anyone from Israel trying bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent people. Anyone found attempting the murder of innocents would be Jailed. Mr Barnes seems ignorant of that simple fact. Others have not got quite the same record. Mr Barnes might sprout some anti Israel dogma that he has picked up from the UN but it holds little to no truth. All I can say is that the further away Mr Barnes is from making any security decisions for Australia the safer we all will be. If those at ASIO displayed his ignorance many lives would likely to be lost.

runner,
You're not aware of very much outside your fundy world are you?
Bomb no Ak 47's etc yes from the odd (both meanings) fundy setter or so.

Idiot!
Olmert and Shalom pose no danger to the Australian community.
Some of these tamils have proven anti-social records,men like Ales who was kicked out of Canada for running convict gang wars in the streets. His brother is also to be deported with half a dozen others.
I hold no brief for the likes of Olmert and Shalom.I detest them but I would rather deal with them than with ANYONE who is happy to exploit our community for their own ends.

socratease

There are thousands of Tamil doctors, lawyers, engineers, bankers etc.

Alex may have had a rough upbringing and may have a criminal record. But he came from a war zone. And people fleeing war often suffer severe trauma which plays out later in life. We are seeing similar problems with other refugee groups. Refugees need a lot of support - support that we can give.

Barns makes a basic factual error, which a quick google search would have uncovered. Silvan Shalom was not part of the Israeli government at the time of the war in Gaza, he was in the opposition Likud party. As such, any claim of war crimes against Shalom is meaningless as the factual underpinnings are false.

Barnes credibility as a writer is frankly dimished completely when such a basic error is made. His views on this issue can simply not be taken seriously.

Talk about double standards.
After WW2 refugees from Europe were admitted into Australia and told wehere they had to settle.There were thousands of Latvians Esthonians
etc who had to rough it up north in the hard and hot mining communities where they made vital contributions to the development there and we were well served by their contributions. These asylum seekers or refugees, call them what you will, are bvrought into the metropolitan cities and immediately given housing, medical aid and social benefits,

I know of two highly educated and trained South Africans,one a doctor and anothera physiotherapist, who made application to emigrate here but had to wait 18 months before they were called up for an interview to be considered if the country neede them. Each had to write an argumentative essay of 1000 words, listen to a tape and write a summary of it, do a comprehension multiple choice test and endure a 1/2 hour eye to eye interview of rigorous questions. Then after 2 years they got the all clear and are now in Australia and immediately proving fruitful immigrants.

Should the new arrivals from boats or planes not have to undergo the same scrutiny?
Anyone see the difference? Talk about double standards.

Two different types of migrants and two very different time periods - all up you don't make a good argument.

"David Jennings :Given that the Sri Lankan civil war is now truly over and the LTTE has pretty much given up its hard to see how they could affect security.

ASIO isn't the smartest organisation. It has got these things wrong before.Posted by David Jennings, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 1:06:58 PM

Exactly why there should be NO political asylum given to any Tamils. The UN has not devoted any resources to updating criteria and UK has found zero evidence of any persecution of returned Tamil aslyum seekers. The only ones that would have an issue being returned are those highlighthed by ASIO as security risk which demasn te entire system. Only criminals have a claim?

The Missus by now you should be aware of what I think of your reasoning abilities or lack thereof.

I see that again the facts are not a barrier to your florid arguments. Both the United Nations and the UK Government have reported on human rights abuses in Sri Lanka against the Tamils. In fact, our own Refugee Review Tribunal has in some cases flagged this as an issue of concern.

Australia has 80,000 Sri Lankan Tamil migrants - many of whom are successful professionals. So they have actually proven to be a very successful migrant group.

David

The UN criteria for refugee status was written last April, a very different place than today. It was updated in July with very little research or on ground experience due to lack of staff.
British courts have covered this extensively.

I have read every word.

Have you?

I am dissapointed with Tamils for their extensive fund raising in support of terrorism that has caused undue suffering of their own people. They need to get over their racist selves and move on.

Besides I agreed with you.

"I am dissapointed with Tamils for their extensive fund raising in support of terrorism that has caused undue suffering of their own people. They need to get over their racist selves and move on."

The degree of racism in that post in mind-boggling. A lot of Tamils didn't support the Tigers and the causes of the Sri Lankan war were very complex. Did young girls deserve to be raped and murdered by Sri Lankan soldiers because some ex-pat paid a few dollars to the LTTE?

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/rape-tamil-women-sri-lankan-armys-weapon-war

The United Nations ranked the Tamils in Sri Lanka as 12th in terms of being the peoples most under threat in the world in 2009.
http://www.minorityrights.org/7927/peoples-under-threat/peoples-under-threat-2009.html

Maybe its time you started thinking before you start writing. It does help.

Sorry David. no UN link there. The highest risk to Tamil was by Tamil at the end of the war which was early 2009. One year ago. Sources by the one website were even older suggesting they projected risk from previous year data.

The main concern by UN was the one camp, not even all of them, just the one and majority have been screened, areas de-mined and Tamils allowed home.

The screening process gives good propoganda to incite hate against a nation but is very normal process post war when people are understandably fearful of enemies in their midst. Especially when the war is based on suicide bombers and outright murderers hiidng behind red cross signage and civilian disguise. We did same in Iraq and I belive the process post WW2 took 10 years! Blame anyone then blame those that fail the rules of war the most.

You may want to tag along with US propoganda but I reject it. I see India/US being very annoyed that China gains strategic port and the Sri Lankan alliance with countries such as Iran, China, Russia unsettling but tough. India being surrounded by a series of lost opportunities. Their choice. India now annoying us, anyone with a pea brain would know that recent complaint is more geo-political than concern for emmigrants. I mean far worse dangers face Indian students in the Middle East, the US etc. All power play. All arrogance and all crap. (well mainly).

What you are saying is misleading the Missus. The UN, the US, the UK and NGOs were pretty clear about the human rights situation in Sri Lanka. Its pretty bad.

I don't get what your problem is with India and Indians anyway. But getting back to Barns's article I think he has a point.

Lucy
Prove it. They were not even there because of their grandstanding. However the evidence they do have is fine. The reports of the EU and also US is far more damning of the Tamils and in respect to the Sri Lankan government questions are only directed to battle tactics in the last breath of war, not with civilians. Chargesare even mild compared to with what we could charge oursleves with in relation to Iraq etc. PLEASE RESEARCH. Not hard at all. Why be so bigoted against a country when you are so lazy? No wonder we always go to wars we should not have even contemplated, lazy minded people waiting for direction fromm the US.

Do we ever learn?

I've read the news reports nd the UN stuff. What you are saying isn't balanced or true.
So you prove it :-)

Double Standards. Greg Barns you give us once again a true set of questions that mirrors our weakness and selective value we place on another's life. Oh for a world that could embrace our shared humanity as a resource rather than a constant threat.

As if war, the show of armed forced cooperation is the lead to peace. Unfinished business, since the first and second world war is all I can see with this ongoing conflict in the Middle East. Clumsy heat and displacement of some over others rather than celebrating the opportunity and offering full scale provision for a world secruity through the act of working for economic - political and a socio-historical need for real Peace.

The Hypocrisy and Solution is in Israels Hands. The meddling of Palestines elections as well as the Israeli government's armed forces ought be held accountable for crimes against humanity. For the degradation, the continued "acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy".

We do nothing but aid the violence as this article points out with our blind acceptance of this situation. Imagine how bright the future could be and the example we could set to other nations everywhere i.e. including China on Human Rights, if our faith in Law and Democracy were as true as the symbolic notions we place on our world national flag.

'How Cultures of Fear, Humiliation, and Hope are Reshaping the World'!

http://www.amazon.com/Geopolitics-Emotion-Cultures-Humiliation-Reshaping/dp/0385523769

Please take a look, this book by Dominique Moisi is a easy read.

http://www.miacat.com/

Listen up all you bloggers.
Have you had the recent Govt blog that Forum et al Internet blog sites are being censored. I've had it flash across my screen many times and I am the leat vitriolic and incapable of sedition...but does my Govt see me in that light. Time to start crawling?
BIG BROTHER is alive and well
Readers and bloggers BEWARE.

socratease ..... ( do I get my cup of hemlock? when??)