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The Forum > Article Comments > What does it take to make a murder 'racist'? > Comments

What does it take to make a murder 'racist'? : Comments

By Andrew Jakubowicz, published 7/1/2010

Indians are angry not so much about the violence and exploitation but rather that Australian governments deny there is an issue.

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The Indian Govt insists that these attacks are racist. Do they mean that Indians have been selected for an attack because they are Indian?
All people living in big cities are more liable to attacks than is the case in my small rural community.
Personally, I can't tell the difference between Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Tamils, Burmese or Bangladeshi's.
Maybe we have a class of thugs that target people with coffee coloured skin but would that mean that they were racist? Seems more likely that they would be targetted because they wouldn't fight back. I wonder what would happen if someone picked on a Ghurka!
Posted by phoenix94, Thursday, 7 January 2010 9:47:14 AM
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Claims of racism really need to be accepted both ways. The racially motivated attacks against whites by the Lebanese gangs was also played down. There was denial by police and government and the whites called xenophobic, racist etc even though they were the victims. So now we have mixed race attackers and the race of this attacker unknown. African seem to be prominent in these attacks but also asian and so called wog gangs that appear to include ango-saxon. After the hysteria over Lebanese gang crime it appears the government and police have decided it is best to downplay race of perpetrators. Even though denial and lack of action was the main ingredient that led to the Cronulla riots they repeat the error.

However the Indians simply presume it was white racism and the filth that has printed againt anglo-saxon may have damaged relations for a long time. It always starts local, like south western Sydney, but when downplayed it becomes a wider issue. Initally resentment against Lebanese in Sydney not addressed led to resentment toward refugees and muslims in general.

It would have been far more intelligent to admit we are allowing in too many for money and not considering enough their ability to fund thier studies, live in reasonable areas and actually receive a superior education. That is our error and we need to admit it. the pressure on these under prepared students has led to a high suicide rate I believe.

So as usual, in summary, I blame the Politcally Correct Lecture Circuit that bans race from being mentioned. You cannot have the villians being Australian and the victim being some other nationality.
Posted by TheMissus, Thursday, 7 January 2010 9:54:43 AM
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Let’s turn this on its head is this in fact an example of racism by India, is a Indian life more valuable than a non Indian? Are Indians only getting worked up about Indians being killed by non Indian’s? It looks like the Indian chap in NSW was killed by other Indians so all's well there then.
The other thing I find interesting is, around 100 people a day are murdered in India, 3 or 4 of these deaths are dowry deaths. Am I being racist for thinking that, that should be a greater concern to Indian news channels, then the death of someone who has chosen to leave Indian and to live and work in Australia? Australia is still a far safer place then India. Indians and the rest of us will have a small chance of being robbed ,beaten or killed whenever we step out into the street. Reducing this risk is what the Police are focussed on. Indians are just as important as the rest of us, they shouldn't get better treatment then the rest of us. I don’t think it’s us who are the racist here .
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 7 January 2010 10:47:25 AM
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India has behaved really badly, however our very own reporters say Australia is racist. That implies Australia is a "race" when it isn't. The stereotype is that Australia is a white race so it actualy racist to use such terminology.

Easier to call a spade a spade when it happens. White guy commits race hate crime, Lebanese Australian commits race hate crime. Tamil who attacked the Sinhalese was racist act, does that make Australia racist? No, it makes that particular person a racist. This needs to be dealt with as soon as it occurs then people feel they have been served justice.

This has happened to all races just the Indians have some sort of superiority gene and expect red carpet. Does not mean some claims are not valid, just the re-action is malicous racism in itself. Plus the spokeperson is a media tart and seems to live his life to get another story into print. The Indians that staged a fire bombing of their business for insurance and claimed it was racist attack also makes me believe it could be over stated. They love the publicity and hatred it all incites.
Posted by TheMissus, Thursday, 7 January 2010 11:09:15 AM
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Unfortunately the media determines what is racist. In South Africans many white deaths at the hands of blacks is not racist. One black death at the hands of white is racist. A race hate filled suicide bomber in Israel is a freedom fighter. Problem is most don't think enough to see through the propaganda.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 7 January 2010 11:09:18 AM
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Add to above
Hey, Indians know what inter-communal hostility can produce; they know how discrimination, ethnic power and exclusion works; they confront these issues day in and day out and have done so for years. They come to Australia to try and get away from that. What Indians are angry about is not so much the great deal less violence and the exploitation that is here, but that they are not given special treatment and residency on arrival. After all is that not what non Indians get when visiting India.

There I fixed your last paragraph.

To the author I’m all for anti racism and non violence, but you need to take that black arm band off and see that this isn’t a white problem? No matter how much you may loath your own culture, all cultures are guilty of racism and it doesn’t help to signal out whites or worse to project it where it doesn’t exist.
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 7 January 2010 11:22:56 AM
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Why do people still scream racism in 2010 ?, Is there money in it in doing so ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 7 January 2010 12:43:38 PM
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The media is responsible for the ‘racist’ nonsense we are supposed to believe is behind the unfortunate deaths and assaults against Indians living in Australia. Governments are just stating facts: there is no evidence that racism has anything to do with attacks on Indians. It is all in the minds of the media who will go to any lengths to gain attention.

This author, who has a vested interest in multiculturalism, would have us believe that Indians are the only people attacked in Australia. Of all the bashings, robberies and murders we hear and read about daily, few of them concern Indians. Nor is the Victorian police commissioner in any position to ‘declare’ “some of the attacks” against victims as ‘racist’. Nor are other “… senior government and police officials in denial about the extent of the racism” simply because Andrew Jakubowicz, a professional multicuturalist whose job it is to keep the pot boiling on multiculturalism and ‘racism’ to keep his job, says that there is ‘racism’. Multiculturalism is a failed experiment whose supporters will do anything to keep alive, despite its deleterious effect on society.

For Andrew Jakubouwicz to claim that racial discrimination “…is evident to everyone except Australia's own top officials”, and to refer to ethnic Chinese minorities and their opinions of Australia is downright stupid. Whether or not Chinese students are exploited or not doesn’t change the fact that Chinese are still doing everything possible to come to Australia. And, any Chinese citizen has one hell of a cheek condemning Australia, given what their own government does to them.

And, the reference to ‘dodgy’ eduction programmes has nothing to do with supposed ‘racism’ and violence against foreign students. Most of the students, Indian and others, are merely using these useless courses to get visas to stay here. The study means nothing to them; it’s back door immigration that matters.

...
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 7 January 2010 1:07:15 PM
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...

And, they cannot expect employment from any course they do if their English is unintelligible, particularly when most of them seem able to only get jobs as taxi drivers and telephone workers where a good command of the language is necessary. And even those being qualified on paper to work in the health field rarely speak well enough to communicate with patients.

Jakubouwicz pulls out the old one of Australia having “a racist history”. Very strange coming from a man with his ethnic background who should know what racism really is. Australia has not been, and is not, any more racist than any other country. Even a multicultural bigot like him, should be aware that people are continually trying to get into Australia by any means; hardly a sign that Australia is racist or a bad country to live in!

The Indian Government and the Indian press are acting as they do when they lose the cricket: it’s never their fault. They now think that we should be upset if they put out travel warnings against Australia, even though we have never had terrorists bombings like they did recently in a prominent hotel used by Australians.

I don’t care what they do, but I do know that everyone, including Indians, are all much, much safer in Australia than they are in India. The Indian Government, like Andrew Jakubouwciz need to grow up, and stop defaming Australia and Australians for the sake of political and monetary gain
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 7 January 2010 1:08:26 PM
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If racism has been revealed to be the motive in the recent murder of an Indian student, or, after research into other violent crimes, racism has been found to be a motivating factor, then all Australian governments need to act decisively and with consistency to address the problems.

For example, what about more targetted recruitment from diverse communities into our police forces until we have a force that represents the composition of our modern Australian society? Police interviews should routinely explore all the motives for crimes against persons or their property including racism. Good information can lead to better focussed strategies.

A recent survey of identical job applications with different applicants names indicating different racial backgrounds, showed that racism is a major factor in the employers' selection of applicants for job interviews. NSW employers scored worst, but none were praiseworthy.

Worst of all, racist considerations are a factor by political parties in their selection of candidates. On occassions, the race card is used to attack another candidate in a political campaign. Harsh penalties should apply, but culprits get extremely light treatment by the courts.

Some people's views towards other races are shaped by shock jocks who exploit fears of people from ethnic minorities, manipulating 'facts' and emotions to boost their ratings. Why do media regulators tolerate this behaviour or decide on weak and ineffective punative action?

In summary, there's a great deal that politicians, industry and community leaders should be doing to fix the problems of racial discrimination in Australia. We must do better. How far do foreign student numbers need to decline and Australia's international reputation nose-dive before Gillard and other politicians decide to deal effectively with the ugly Australians in our ranks?

Denial or suppression of major problems confronting Australia is typical of our political leaders.
Posted by Quick response, Thursday, 7 January 2010 3:33:40 PM
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I wonder if the supposedly well-educated and well-travelled author had read this article before he launched into his diatribe about racist Australia. See http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/christian_woman_killed_in_india_as_antichristian_violence_continues/

While the headline only notes a sole woman killed, the article from October 1, 2008 notes the following:
"Another Christian woman was killed and 300 more houses were burned down in anti-Christian violence in the India(n) state of Orissa on Wednesday. Her death brings to 60 the number of Christians who have been killed by Hindu extremists since August 23, with 18,000 people injured and over 50,000 people having fled their homes."

This article also quotes from a Father Carlo Torriani, a missionary for the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions to the lepers of Mumbai, who said that leaders in the Indian government, “pretend the problem [violence against Christians in Orissa and other states] does not exist and even the national press doesn’t give it much coverage.”

The stabbing death of Nitin Garg in West Footscray is an appaling incident but without evidence that it was a racially-motivated attack, what benefit is there in trying to suggest that it was? The only benefit there would be - as the author clearly suggests - is a justification for money being given to the supposed anti-discrimination "professionals" who can then drum up another campaign of fear and loathing directed at the whole community.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Thursday, 7 January 2010 4:09:29 PM
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Wow - a textbook case of a whole bunch of comments/responses completely validating the key point of an article by completely missing/ignoring that point.

None so blind as those who will not see.
Posted by AndrewBartlett, Thursday, 7 January 2010 8:12:48 PM
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Is there racialism in this country? Undoubtably yes, no denying it.

But is this racialism the problem, or culturalism / cultural hubris?

I feel resentful when I am on a bus and cannot hear myself think when a group of Brazillian backbackers make a lot of noise. This seems to be a characteristic of parts of their culture, and I don't like it.

I feel resentful like, when today, a group of five Indian students walking as a group forced me off the footpath in inner Sydney.

I feel resentful at the loud car subwoofers playing arabic rap music, that I can hear 100 metres away coming down Bondi Road at 10.00pm on a Sunday night.

I feel resentful when people from other cultures push their way in front of a queue, or think that the expectations of other in this society don't apply to them.

I feel resentful when people from other cultures don't think that Australian laws apply to them.

In short I am biased against the behaviour of certain groups: not the colour of their skin, not what they wear, not their religious beliefs and not their so-called 'race'.

And before Indian students start compalining too hard they should remember that one of their own number escaped justice in a traffic death case by fleeing Australia on a borrowed passport.

There is fault on all sides.
Posted by Dougthebear, Thursday, 7 January 2010 9:17:55 PM
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What key point former Senator? The author presents NO evidence whatsoever that the stabbing death (murder) of Nitin Garg was racially inspired, yet sees fit to suggest that we should now call in the so-called professionals from the anti-discrimination field to help devise an anti-racism strategy to protect Indian students.

There has been much hue and cry made about the death of Nitin Garg by the sensationalist Indian media, with some egging on by Indian officials but they are hardly in a place to lecture a country such as Australia about racial tolerance or prevention of violence against minorities.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Thursday, 7 January 2010 10:48:44 PM
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A very good article. The author rightly points out that Indian students feel let down with the pr education scams that are allegedly rife in Australia. Unfavourable perceptions of government may result if there seems to be no interest in changing things or providing independent reassurance.

But is the behaviour racist? If the concerns of the students are true, it is certainly opportunistic and exploitative. But one need only look at the machinations of Australia's housing market to realise that opportunism and exploitation aren't uniquely applied to foreign students. It could be argued that considerable experience with these tools has already been garnered from their application to the resident population. Perhaps if the housing market had a little less government assistance there might be fewer of the "horror" stories where a few score of foreign students are discovered to be living in squalid conditions in a single dwelling?
Posted by Fester, Thursday, 7 January 2010 11:21:35 PM
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I have seen this migrant Andrew Jakubowicz complaining about discrimination against migrants continually. One needs to understand that being either a migrant himself or having migrant parents will naturally make him bias and discriminate in favour of other migrants and against the ordinary Anglo Aussie. This guy has made his whole life out of critisizing white Australia. It's his business. Have a look at the website he developed for Australian students to study. Its called Making Multicultural Australia. It one of the most bias websites I have ever seen. It never presents an equal viewpoint. It is amazing and very sad that Australia has come to this lowpoint. We have let migrants pour into this country who have basically just come from failed countries ( usually due to their own countrymen ), and once they arrive they spend the rest of their time critisizing the people who have been so generous to them.
In relation to his article there is absolutely no evidence at this point that these are racially based attacks. To determine that we need the ethicity of the attackers. The politically correct ( including Andrew)will try to hide this from us. My bet is that most of the attackers will be of ethnic origin. When the 12 Melbourne Indian taxi drivers were attacked in 2008, 10 of the 12 attackers were according to reports of African appearance, yet this was rarely reported. We only hear that the victims were non whites and therefore assume whites must be to blame. Most migrants to Australia come from countries where the rates of crime are far worse than Australia. It makes common sense that they bring some of this crime and violence with them. A Swedish report a few years ago found that migrants were more than 4 times more likely to commit violent crime. Australia does not and will not collect such data as the Multicultural lobby is too strong. According to a report from the Australian Criminology institute the reason for not doing such research is that "differentiation based on parents country of birth could be considered Prejudicial".
Posted by ozzie, Thursday, 7 January 2010 11:42:26 PM
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Well my response to that would be that it would only give a prejudice opinion if it demonstrated a higher crime rate. If their rates of crime are truly the same as the rest of Australia then surely they would want us to know about this.
To all Australians who do not believe what these migrants are saying it is now the time to stand up and voice your opinons to family and friends that people such as Andrew here and his friends are simple lying and distorting the truth for there own gain. The best way to beat them is to ask them to prove their points with facts, they simple have none.
Before Australia had multiculturalism in the early 1970s we had one of the most successful, friendly countries in the world. There were very few who went without. We are now importing people who have been successful in turning their own countries into 3rd world countries. Many of them are doing the same to Austrlia. Its time for most Aussies to wake up and share your concern.
Posted by ozzie, Thursday, 7 January 2010 11:50:22 PM
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Ozzie<.." Before Australia had multiculturalism in the early 1970s we had one of the most successful, friendly countries in the world. There were very few who went without."

Very few white Australians went without you mean Ozzie?

Australia has been multicultural since Europeans first colonised this country.
The first Australians were brutalized by many of these new arrivals, and many Aboriginals have certainly gone without, ever since their lands were taken from them all those years ago.

All non-Aboriginal people of Australia then really have no right to complain about immigration to Australia, when all of us are descended from migrants in the first place
Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 8 January 2010 12:23:43 AM
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This is a very good article, despite most of the commentary here.

Andrew Bartlett's quite correct. The indignant denialism as to the possibility of a racist motivation for the senseless murder of Mr Garg is exactly what Prof Jakubowicz was drawing attention to on the part of the Victoria Police and Julia Gillard.

To pretend that racism is unlikely to be a major factor in the spate of recent serious assaults on Indians, as most commenters here do, is to reinforce Jakubowicz's point. I note that Australia's High Commissioner to India is a tad more realistic than the Victoria Police and the Acting PM:

<< Australia's High Commissioner to India, Peter Varghese, says race might have played a role in some of the violent attacks against Indian students that have threatened ties between the two countries.

The admission came after India advised thousands of its citizens studying in Australia to take precautions against assault following the murder of a young Indian national in Melbourne last weekend.

Mr Varghese told reporters in New Delhi that Australia has never denied there being a racial element to any of the attacks.

He labelled the majority of assaults involving Indian nationals "opportunistic urban crime."

But he added there have been some cases where the motivation appeared to be racial, particularly where the attackers engaged in racial abuse. >>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/07/2786997.htm

It doesn't matter whether the assailants are Anglo-Australians or members of other ethnic groups, if Indians are being targeted because of their ethnicity, then racism is very likely to be a causal factor. It's also irrelevant that racism exists in India - racism is racism wherever it raises its ugly head.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 8 January 2010 4:27:40 PM
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CJMorgan and what if it isn't what if this murder like the one in NSW is found to be done by an Indian? What if it's found to be done by a Pakistani, or a Tamil upset by a racist slur that the victim dish out to them. Where we that leave your and other self hating black arm banders then. Could it be that it would be better to actually find out weather there is racism involved before you join others if racing to condemn Modern Australian culture.

And yes the state of affairs in India is a matter of interest to the rest of us. If they are going to condemn us then it's worth while holding the mirror up. Or are you one of these self loathing Westerns who have this nation that only white people can be racist.

That right Western culture bad other cultures good. This leftie find that unacceptable.
Posted by cornonacob, Friday, 8 January 2010 7:17:28 PM
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I hope that Graham tolerates this as it is a bit off topic. I have just spent an hour reading the Making Multicultural Australia web site. It’s left me utterly disgusted. I could find a signal positive comment about western culture. Now any long term readers of this site will know I have defended multicultural Australia the concept, as an atheist I have stood beside Muslims under attack. But it is know getting silly, where is the balance. There is nothing on the web site that show western cultural and Australian culture in a positive light, maybe I missed, can someone point to an article on the site? Any children of Anglo-Saxons reading this web site would come away thinking that all of their parents and grandparents are racist criminals.

I note two things, Atheist are the 2nd largest religious group in Australia but they are barley mentioned, Why are they not included in this vision for Multicultural Australia. Also it is clear that no none from the government has actually read the website. If this is the new face of labour Multiculturalism then that’s the 2nd good reason I have for voting Liberal at the next election. Very angry.
Posted by cornonacob, Friday, 8 January 2010 7:48:47 PM
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C J Morgan

"To pretend that racism is unlikely to be a major factor in the spate of recent serious assaults on Indians, as most commenters here do, is to reinforce Jakubowicz's point. I note that Australia's High Commissioner to India is a tad more realistic than the Victoria Police and the Acting PM"

Exactly! why pretend, call a spade a spade. Why pretend that muslims are not racist anymore. Attacks in Sydney dominated by lebanese heritage muslims and in Melbourne by Somalian muslims.

Some others by so called wog gangs.

Everyone tried to pretend it was not happening in Sydney toward white and Indigenous Australians and it led to a riot. Does not work.

If you say at the time this was an inter-religous ro race moitvated crime peope feel done and dusted. pretend it never happens and wa breaks out. Aussies not different to Inidans. Aussie were seen to be hysterical when they were being raped, bashed, intimidated and now same for Indian students. No more PC. Spade a spade.
Posted by TheMissus, Friday, 8 January 2010 8:13:37 PM
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The reality is that secularism hates the fact that once Christian based nations provided by far the best living environments for people. Kids had dads and mums and all who wanted to integrate were accepted. Failed secular dogma has left us loathing every good thing about our forefathers and created a mythical peaceful existence from our first people. CJ is among these loathers but he certainly is not alone. You can blame our modern day revisionist to whom so many now suck up to. Somehow every culture that isn't based on the Christian Judea ethic has been given victim labels. Those who sweated, worked hard, paid taxes and believed in a fair go have been demonized. The same thing has happened in America and UK. Most are just to dumb to see it.
Posted by runner, Friday, 8 January 2010 8:26:32 PM
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Most of this crime is from refugee populations. Although they maybe lovely people if they do not have skills to do well their children become victims of socio-economic conditions and are more likley to join territorial gangs that leads to race based violence. Same happens with any race if they cannot join the workforce in an effective manner. Muslims though do have an added prejudice.

Still we have to say this not an excuse and admit that these problems stem from poor immigration policies. It may sound nice let everyone in but it is cruel if we allow people in that will struggle. It is so much better to devote resources to settling them in environments where they can thrive and have happy lives.

Too many people want them in to makes themselves happy, feel hero and massage thier own ego whatever, rather than in the best interest of the refugee.
Posted by TheMissus, Friday, 8 January 2010 8:35:15 PM
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More evidence of how wonderful multi culturalism is

http://www.smh.com.au/national/police-hunt-teens-over-shopping-centre-sex-assault-20100108-ly50.html

IT is not a racist attack because the offenders are the wrong nationality.
Posted by runner, Friday, 8 January 2010 10:17:00 PM
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What does it take to make a murder 'racist'?

A murder is racist when you can blame whitey.
Posted by HermanYutic, Friday, 8 January 2010 10:55:07 PM
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runner: That's sickening on more than one level. One - singling out those perpetrators because they are non-Anglo. Another is that you have never seemed to give two hoots about victims of sexual assault; now you are implying it's an issue of concern because the accused are not white men. Like, as if white fellas have never raped anyone.

What does it take to make a murder 'racist'?

HermanYutic: <" A murder is racist when you can blame whitey.">

Actually that's correct but not in the way that you'd like it to be. The reason that there is no such thing as 'reverse racism' is that white people by default have power and priveleges - they have no extensive history of exploitation by other races; whereas the opposite has been the case. Therefore, when non-white people make a few gains that is fair enough in that they are redressing an imbalance. White people stand to lose nothing except automatic privelege. So please stop weeping into your hanky.
Posted by Pynchme, Saturday, 9 January 2010 2:29:28 AM
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CJ: (Hiya CJ!) <"It doesn't matter whether the assailants are Anglo-Australians or members of other ethnic groups, if Indians are being targeted because of their ethnicity, then racism is very likely to be a causal factor.">

On this I feel compelled to disagree; and more so since the ugly KKK cartoon. I understand that racism needs to be investigated and until it is we can only speculate, but the only information available on any attack against an Indian person that I can find (link from the article) the name is not Anglo. It doesn't make the attack right; but we need to understand the ethnicity and belief system of the perpetrators because otherwise how can we address it as a community?

Maybe we need to emphasize how intolerant behaviour is against the law here and against prevailing community ideals and all that.

Just standing by apologizing while people portray all Aussies as KKKs (white supremacist nuts) is just not right and definitely not helpful to anybody; least of all people in the group being victimized (for whatever reason).
Posted by Pynchme, Saturday, 9 January 2010 2:35:07 AM
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Hi Pynchme :) I'll have to disagree with you this time - I think that there is plenty of evidence of racist acts and sentiments by non-'white' people, in Australia and in other parts of the world. If you define racism as ascribing innate characteristics to individuals on the basis of inherent features such as skin colour or ethnicity, then it's certainly a phenomenon that's by no means restricted to 'whites'.

Of course, the kinds of racist ideologies subscribed to by many 'whites' tend to have far more profoundly negative effects on their non-'white' objects than the other way round. An Anglo-Australian police officer who refers to Aborigines as 'coons' is in a somewhat more powerful position than a Koori who refers to the cop as a 'white c*#t'. On the other hand, in India there is a well-described cultural preference towards light coloured skin, which tends to be expressed via the caste system (at least among Hindus).

Japanese are notoriously racist towards Koreans (and indeed everybody else), while Han Chinese behave similarly towards ethnic minorities in China.

The point is that it seems that Indian victims of crimes in Australia appear to be targeted because of their ethnicity, and if that's the case it is certainly racist. It doesn't matter whether the perpetrators are Sudanese, Koori, Anglo, Lebanese or whatever - if their victims are selected because of perceived 'race', then the crimes are racist in nature.

Nitin Garg's murder was a particularly brutal and senseless one, since it appears that robbery was not involved. It's possible that he was killed by other Indians, but I'd bet London to a brick that he wasn't.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 9 January 2010 7:56:51 AM
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CJ Morgan,

A common sense reply which will be wasted on affirmative action ideologues like Pynchme.

When white couple Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom were horrifically raped, tortured and murdered by a gang of five blacks it was not racist and therefore not a hate crime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

If the races had been reversed that would have provided sufficient proof for people like Pynchme of the necessity of hate-crime legislation.

You will never win with people like Pynchme.
Posted by HermanYutic, Saturday, 9 January 2010 11:26:43 AM
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To correct runner:
Dogmatic religionists hate the fact that since rigid (if often pretended) religious bigotry and stagnation have retracted, secular states have leapt forward in living conditions, science, personal freedom and lifespan.

I think multiculturalism is a difficult thing to deal with, it is interesting how runner makes it the problem of the outsider to conform. Can't really just mind your own business, can you Mrs Grundy?

The reason the good samaritan was notable was because samaritans (supposedly) wouldn't help people outside theit tribe. In Samaria, there is no tradition of the good Jew. Runner continues this tradition fairly well.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Saturday, 9 January 2010 7:44:57 PM
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Rusty you write

'Dogmatic religionists hate the fact that since rigid (if often pretended) religious bigotry and stagnation have retracted, secular states have leapt forward in living conditions, science, personal freedom and lifespan'

Dogmatic secular hate has far exceeded religous bigotry of the past. Violence is an everyday occurence on our streets, millions of murdered unborn babies because men and women want promiscurity with no responsibility, dramatic increase in child sex abuse fed by the secular porn industry, fatherless boys and girls leading to an dramatic increase in suicide, dramatic drug taking increase, You have fooled yourself if you think that secularism has brought freedom. Women now rarely find a faithful husband, are treated as purely sex objects much of the time and in many cases have to wear the pants in the house of men with no ... Mr think you are to blinded by your dogma to write any sense. The only idols secularist can come up with are very flawed people. No wonder their followers have no discernment.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 9 January 2010 10:58:46 PM
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I think this story from earlier today is relevant to this discussion:

<< The Victorian Government says it hopes another attack on an Indian man in Melbourne will not dissuade people from considering Australia as a safe place to study, work and live.

An Indian man is in hospital after being set on fire in the street in Melbourne early this morning. >>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/09/2788802.htm

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the initial police respons to the attack is to say that they "believe it was not racially motivated". That seems to be consistent with the central point of Prof Jakubowicz's article. Deny racism as a motive first, maybe investigate later.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 9 January 2010 11:21:28 PM
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Personally I find it interesting that only a few years ago articles concerning such crimes mostly had a description of the attackers so that the public could assist. Now I mostly don't see any description. Often all that is stated is, anyone with information is asked to contact police. For instance this latest Indian to be attacked by 4 men in a street. All of the articles I have read carry no description except for 1 article which states that Police have a description of the attackers( yet the description is not passed on to the public). Why is this information being witheld? Is it too politically sensitive. If its ok to release the ethnicity of the victim, then why can't we have at least a description of the attackers. I will bet that the immigrants are vastly over represented as attackers. Just like the recent Swedish Crime institute study demonstrating clearly that immigratns were MORE THAN 4 TIMES more likely to be responsible for violent crime. We have imported so many third world people in the last few years. Now we are paying the price. They have brought their cultures with them. Are people also aware that blacks are MORE THAN 5 TIMES more likely to commit murder than whites in the USA. Oops, sorry, I forgot, we live in a politically correct multicultural country and should mention the truth any more.
Posted by ozzie, Saturday, 9 January 2010 11:40:35 PM
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Ozzie.
The police in Vic are very reluctant to say who violent atteckers are or thought to be. You can bet this instruction comes from high, as polys don't like to admit that there are problems with some groups of ethnics. Be they immigrants or refugees, or children of same.

From another sourse, the police are considering that the burns attack of an Indian bloke in Melbourne could be an insurance job gone wrong. We will have to wait and see. SMH reveals that two men were detained at Sydney airport, questioned and their passports confiscated in relation to the murder and burning of a body at Griffith. Could involve a dispute over money, as the dead man was a contractor who employed Indian nationals.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 10 January 2010 9:28:51 AM
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runner, your parody is breathtaking.


Put down the pamphlet and go get a book, or check the ABS. There is virtually no violence on a per-capita basis compared to my own living memory. I grew up in a town where there were fights to unconsciousness outside pubs so regularly only yahoos would leave their beer to watch. Now it would be national news. There is drastically less of everthing else you mention. Historically infant death rates were so high that abortion could be achieved by waiting. The infant death rate is now insignificant, where once it was double digit. You want to ban aborton *and* criticise parents forced to keep children they *did not want*. Hypocrite. Fatherless children have always been with us, less now than before as we don't lose as many to war, dangerous work and disease. Historically, the neglecting father could just walk over the horizon, get far away, tell any story he wants. Women have always had the problem of finding a faithful husband, and historically had no option but to put up with unfaithful hypoctrites some with good standing in their church.

If you don't like killing babies, take it up with your god. Your own fictional god supposedly killed the first born of Egypt. Would you like to meet each of those fathers and get a message from them to deliver to your god mr hypocrite?

Ozzie: Those blacks, did they have jobs? how did the crime rate of blacks with jobs compare to whites without? The reason many requests for information have been made less informative is a product of experience. Go stand in a corner and try not to think of a white bear.
If you tell people detail, they remember what you told them. If they just recount what they remember without prompting, you get less clouding of the memory.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Sunday, 10 January 2010 9:31:04 AM
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Hiya CJ: Yes, yes I see what you mean and of course you're correct. I was being quite parochial in considering racism only in the Australian context.

However, as Anglo-Aussie is the dominant culture here and where power resides, any charge of racism (as the KKK cartoon demonstrates) is going to be held against Anglo-Australians.

We don't know that these attacks aren't the result of some imported inter-ethnic conflict. I don't see how we can address it successfully as a community if we are not addressing the actual source of the problem.

Herman - I am pro affirmative action for the reasons stated.
Posted by Pynchme, Sunday, 10 January 2010 9:42:17 AM
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Rusty catheter, an excellent response to the Runner from your last post!(Where did you get that name?!)

I agree with Pynchme that the KKK cartoons do represent a racist attack against Anglo- Australians. Our Government should and has taken exception to the cartoons and registered their displeasure with the Indian Government/media.

For the most part, Anglo-Australians will not resort to mass violence and anger towards such depictions of our police force. I wonder what would have happened in India if the situation was reversed?

However, there is nothing to be gained from causing an international incident between Australia and India. We have enough problems with other countries to add any more supposed enemies to our list.
We should try hard to promote peace at all costs.
Posted by suzeonline, Sunday, 10 January 2010 11:50:12 PM
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Suzeonline,

I don't understand you. It's my real name.

Rusty is a traditional north american causacian name, with deep roots in both history and folklore. My family name became eponymous in the time of my great granfather with his invention, a coal-fuelled cat-Heater (trade name cat-heter) which he successfully marketed to the shut-in-octagenarian-pet-incapable-of-maintaining-thermostasis-cat-fancier market. GGdad was an early adopter of the niche-market approach.

Despite unfortunate corporate buy-outs of the 1980's, the marketing-relations department of the out-sourced manufacturing subsidiary that supplies the packing crates for the more modern electrical equivalent proudly retains the founder's family name and traditions. This remains an article of pride for myself and my only other two relatives, a pair of incestuous gay gun-enthusiasts who live outside Reno, Nevada and run a small drive thru wedding chapel three days a week. We all look forward to the corporate christmas card each year.

Hope this clears up any misconceptions.

Rusty.
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Monday, 11 January 2010 12:28:20 AM
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Well said Andrew - very good article. There was a marvellous moment on the news last week where a senior copper (Simon Overland i think) made a statement to the cameras re the KKK cartoon, making the point that it was neither witty nor insightful.

The fact that he could not see just how insightful it was in the face of his own continued self delusion on this issue was just stunning.

The Australian media has also played a corrosive role in this latest episode, with only this morning, ABC National radio describing the indian reaction as "hysterical". Fancy that, getting hysterical at losing your 21 year old son to a needless & violent attack in a foreign country!
Posted by georgio mendes, Monday, 11 January 2010 1:44:38 PM
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The problem with the whole debate is that it is based on the notion of “race”. The term is highly ambiguous, and so the participants in the discussions just confuse each other and themselves. In the biological sense, “race” does not exist. Sometimes people seem to be referring to cultural differences and sometimes to the country of origin. Sometimes there is some other unclear idea or attitude behind the word.

We should all do ourselves a favour and stop using the words “race”, “racial”, “racist” and “racism” at all in this debate. Look for other words that say more accurately what we observe, think and feel.

Anyone who believes they themselves belong to a “race” or assigns others to a “race” is a “racist”.

For further understanding of my view, see my article on this site:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4108
Posted by crabsy, Monday, 11 January 2010 5:05:46 PM
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I agree crabsy - at least to the extent that, as a biological term, 'race' is meaningless when applied to humans. However, it certainly exists as an ideological construct in the minds and actions of racists, which is why you're completely wrong to try and avoid the issue in this debate.

Racists do things to people who have a different skin colour to them and/or are culturally different to them because they regard the objects of their racism as being lesser himan beings than they are. They don't know and/or care that the concept of 'race' is biologically nonsense when used about humans.

Just read comments about 'racial' issues here at OLO for confirmation of my point.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 11 January 2010 5:25:07 PM
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I believe 300% that it is really culture that divides people rather than skin colour but the world still sees culture and race intermixed so we can't change the way the world sees.

I have seen this amplified in some reports in the Indian press and also other areas like the US. They seem to have such an obession to race that we do actually look very much better in comparison than we are portrayed.

The problem I have seen though is that it has become such a re-occuring theme that people who used to defeND themselves with great passion against charges of racism now shrug and say Ok I am racist. The whole racist this, that and the other has been really counter productive. People do not care anymore. Over played I am afraid.

I blame the fact racism has become an industry. People spend their lives scouring You Tube, media, or rumours to make sensationalistic news so they get paid. Sick. Real sick. What is worse they pretend they promote harmony.
Posted by TheMissus, Monday, 11 January 2010 6:38:58 PM
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In Brisbane Sophia Tun and a friend used their stiletto heeled shoes to viciously beat Canadian student Tammy Hinchey.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26576145-952,00.html

Plainly this is the issue of skin colour and different culture C J Morgan wrote about earlier. To quote CJM: "Racists do things to people who have a different skin colour to them and/or are culturally different to them because they regard the objects of their racism as being lesser himan beings than they are."

Should the Canadian government be complaining about 'Australian' racism and what sort of cartoon would be suitable to bring home that point?
Posted by Cornflower, Monday, 11 January 2010 10:02:59 PM
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Nice to see that Cornflower's peculiar logic has survived the holiday period.

If there had been a well-reported wave of serious assaults perpetrated by Australians against Canadian students who were apparently selected for being Canadian, and if the Australian authorities seemed to be in denial about that, then undoubtedly the Canadian government would advocate for the interests of its expatriate citizens.

But there hasn't been. All you've got is a single report of a drunken cat-fight outside a notorious Brisbane night club. Sort of pales into insignificance against the gutting of some poor guy on his way to work, or the setting alight of another in a quiet suburban street, etc etc etc, doesn't it?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 6:45:16 AM
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CJ

So now you are disputing your own definition? No doubt about it you take any and every opportunity to vilify Australia and Australians even if it takes some contortions to do it.

You have no idea how many Canadians have been assaulted because no-one has played the racism card on their behalf. However, from your form you probably wouldn't be interested in assaults of Canadians and would find some way of rationalising such crimes so that it is never racism.

Just where is your proof of racist intent in the examples you gave because without that it is all just speculative gossip, innuendo and mischief-making.

I am also reminded of a comment by an ex-police Commissioner (AFP, I recall) that much knife and gun crime in Australia was attributable to certain migrant groups bringing their favoured traditional ways of solving disputes with them.
Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 2:05:21 PM
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CJ,

<I agree crabsy - at least to the extent that, as a biological term, 'race' is meaningless when applied to humans. However, it certainly exists as an ideological construct in the minds and actions of racists, which is why you're completely wrong to try and avoid the issue in this debate.>

Can’t let that one go! Where did I try to “avoid the issue”? What I actually said was that we should stop using certain words – i.e. “race”, “racist”, “racial” and “racism”. In doing so we force ourselves and others to look more honestly at the statements and arguments in circulation.

If accused of “racism”, I might answer “There is no such thing as race. So what are you talking about?” In effect this demands of the accusers a reappraisal of their perception and a charge based on empirically more testable grounds.

By continuing to use the “race” vocabulary – by arguing on their grounds – you simply perpetuate the ideological construct in the minds of those who embrace it.

Contrary to the common view, semantics is far from being a distraction from whatever issue at hand: it is actually a major tool in identifying the problem and negotiating the solution.
Posted by crabsy, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 5:45:37 PM
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crabsy: << If accused of “racism”, I might answer “There is no such thing as race. So what are you talking about?” >>

Indeed, and it's a ploy that's been used here at OLO often enough by the cleverer racists. My point is that, while 'race' is meaningless in biological terms when applied to humans, it clearly exists as a social construct for many (if not most) people who haven't had the benefit of an education through which they've learned that it's a scientific nonsense when applied to people.

These ignorant people - not all of whom act in racist ways towards others whom they believe to be 'racially' different to them - attribute essential differences to other people on the basis of phenotypical features like skin colour, and also on the basis of ethnicity and religion.

I agree that the semantics are important, but when you have what is probably a majority of the population misusing 'racial' terms in their categorisation of others - often in the most pejorative and essentialist ways - then I think that it's counterproductive to insist on semantic correctness. The bigoted boofheads who are picking on others because they believe that they are essentially inferior due to phenotype, ethnicity or religion don't care about the semantics. What terminology would you suggest?

Cornflower - have you read Andrew Jakubowicz's article and the discussion here, or are you doing your usual thing and trying to pick a fight with me regardless of the context? Besides which, where exactly have I vilified Australia and Australians? I thought I'd made it clear - even for one as apparently intellectually challenged as you - that racism isn't confined to 'whites' or Australians.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 8:59:46 PM
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CJ,

You keep avoiding the question and of course when your back is to the wall you always stoop to personal abuse.

So where is your proof of racist intent in the examples you gave and to support your belief that Australians are racist?

BTW, since when did you ever say anything positive about Australians and Australia?
Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 11:54:30 PM
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As I thought, Cornflower's just trolling for a stoush.

Cornflower, I'll address any on-topic questions you may have when you display some evidence of having read the article which is the basis for this discussion. At this stage, there is no indication that you have.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 7:18:21 AM
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CJ

More insults but still no answer.
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 3:53:21 PM
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At least in the latest attack on Indians they have named the attackers as all being Asian ( yes all 8 of them). So ten people were involved in this episode and not one was an Anglo. So what does it take to male attacks racist? Answer, plenty of migrants pouring into the country bringing their traditions with them.
Posted by ozzie, Tuesday, 26 January 2010 1:22:04 PM
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Three INDIANS have just been arrested for the murder and BURNING, YES SETTING HIM ON FIRE of another INDIAN in Australia. This again was initially reported as a racist attack. We need to stop immigration, it is destroying our country. Simply people who have destroyed their own countries coming here. This story can be viewed at MakingMulticulturalAustralia.blogspot.com
Posted by ozzie, Saturday, 30 January 2010 12:06:10 PM
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