Waterboy wrote:

"You have asserted that "faith may lead one to blow oneself up, etc etc". I agree that certain belief systems have been associated with the sorts of behaviours you describe. But remember: Hitler was a champion of uegenics & scientists invented nuclear weapons."

Dear Waterboy,

I am quite aware of Hitler. He was a man of faith who exploited the years of Jew hatred promoted by Christianity. He was a Christian backed by most of the German churches, and the Holocaust was Applied Christianity.

The fact is that believers accept a lot of unprovable propositions such as virgin birth, humanoid god or gods whether in the form of Jesus or Zeus, humans having revelations from god etc. What most people mean by faith is apparently not of interest to you. Since I don't know what you are talking about I will use the definition of faith that most people seem to have.

I don't claim any truth for scientific knowledge. I agree that science is concerned with what is plausible or the best explanation rather than what is true. Science will discard those explanations if replaced by a better one. I think that is more reasonable than having faith.

Faith produces neither truth nor plausible explanations. I think it better to question and doubt.

Newton, Darwin and Darwin are three great men who changed our world. All questioned the wisdom current at the time. George Eliot and Herman Melville, like those three scientists, also questioned the social attitudes of the day. They were great writers.

Please name one truth that has been produced through faith.

David F

"I will use the definition of faith that most people seem to have."

So perhaps your "version of truth" is simply what you expect "most people" to believe.

I am not sure that is any more valid than religious belief systems or making excessive claims for scientific knowledge.

At the moment you are doing a pretty good job of illustrating Sells point about imagination having been killed by modernity and materialism. I doubt there is any knowledge available that fits your definition of truth (even if most people share your misunderstanding of the term). Truth, sach as is available to us, requires imagination.

Dear Waterboy,

You chose to castigate me by accusing me of lacking imagination. You also chose to eulogise something called faith.

You made the statement: "Faith can lead you greater truths than science can ever imagine and I challenge you to find any serious, practising scientist who believes that scientific knowledge is sufficient to support a satisfying and worthwhile life."

I don't think any serious person believes that scientific knowledge is sufficient to support a satisfying and worthwhile life so I don't know why you said it. It is what is called a straw man argument. Bring in something that has not been said and argue against it. Faith is also unnecessary to support a satisfying and worthwhile life. That part of your statement is not relevant to our discussion.

However, I repeat my request "Please name one truth that has been produced through faith." Please give one example of the greater truths you contend that faith can lead to. I know of none.