Houlley

Do you believe chickens, or any animal for that matter, can feel pain. Why do we assume because an animal is not human that immediately absolves us of any responsibility for that creature’s welfare or quality of life?

One doesn't have to anthropomorphise to observe animals feel pain, care for their young, some even forming monogamous partnerships for life.

If you could choose a quick painless death for an animal you are about to eat why wouldn’t you? Same applies to the environment in which they are raised.

Just because chickens would not naturally choose to retire with a cognac in front of a log fire in the evening, does not mean they enjoy being de-beaked or having to live unnaturally on wire floors with resulting deformed feet.

Cornflower
How does animal cruelty become a big brother issue? Are you out there campaigning against murder, assault or other laws. We have laws for a reason, including animal cruelty (not enough in my mind) for good reasons. We don’t like news stories about how young hoons may cruelly torment a kitten at a railway station, yet we are quite happy to let some farmed animals live their short lives in awful conditions.

Perhaps if we gave the hens some cognac of an evening it might dull the pain.

Thanks Pelican you said it so well.

Houellebecq: I admit it - for once (no, second time now I think on it) I laughed at one of your posts. Reminded me of the movie Chicken Run. Pity that you applied that humour to supporting cruelty. What a waste.

However, the point of my comment was to illustrate that we can be kind to animals and still get produce - and so much more in terms of small local industry; community connections; independence and nice family memories.

I find it a bit hard to understand how we can be arguing about whether or not it's ok to be cruel.

Here's a pledge site anyway with information:

http://www.freebetty.com/

Just to rub salt in the wound, I read an article some weeks ago where someone had calculated that about twice as many eggs were being sold as free range as could be produced by registered free range farms.

I suspect that the extra 50% about you pay for empancipated hens is going into the feed box of the producers.

Next the boxes will be too restrictive and eggs (potential chickens) will be packaged in shoe boxes where they will be free to roam.

Shadow Minister,

I have to admit I buy free range eggs. But that's what messes with my head. How do you really know? Maybe we need a photo of the actual chicken the eggs came from on the front of the pack. Maybe a letter about how the extra money we are paying for the eggs has helped the chicken and it's family.

pelican,

'pain' to 'quality of life' is a bit of a slide down the wedge. Show me a screaming animal and I will be on side. Show me though, don't tell me. Tell me the animal 'feels cramped, and needs more solitude', or 'has a burning desire to get more exercise so he doesn't beat the missus', 'relies on us to encourage it to exercise' and I cant take you seriously.

I think it's a case of crying wolf. The greenies and animal liberationists have gone on about 'psychological' effects on animals and are totally inconsistent themselves about which species they want protected. The manatee is much more endangered than the dolphin but gets 100th the attention, and I'm sure rats would never get a look in were they to become endangered.

Besides, the food chain isn't 'humane'. Humans are humans and they are as naughty as a cat toying with a lizard until it dies a slow death. It's inconsistent to say humans should be 'above' and simultaneously 'be one' with nature. Nature is cruel. If chickens were big enough and liked the taste of us they wouldn't return the favour that's for sure.

Pynchme,

That's ok I laugh at most of your posts.

Top order carnivore predators cannot include humans as the rate of our population growth is far to heavy to support. Our "hunting and gathering" for bearers have been much more celebrated for their hunting, but the reality is that the gathering part was probably much more part of their diet. We are actually physiologically more foraging herbivores than carnivores, despite the hype and what our culture and conditioning tells us.
Economies developed from a culture of breeding, herding and eating animals. Civilisations meant captive domestic animals instead of a subsistence level of hunting. Livestock ownership became a currency.
Our nearest "cousins", Chimpanzees, are omnivores, but the amount of meat they eat is minimal compared to what most human societies eat. Chimps may eat up to 3% meat, but mostly fruits and nuts. If we want to continue our livestock reliance and gorge ourselves while other countries go hungry, then animals lose their rights to normal behaviors and conditions. Humans will continue to abuse and consume the planet.
Most people accept Darwin's theories, yet throw them out when it is convenient! The food pyramid should be turned upside down.

Nalood1 “Because humans build concentration camps and practise genocide is not a justification for the needless abuse of innocent humans. Does one logic apply to humans and another logic apply to other species”

You know when someone is totally desperate and devoid of any rational argument ……

Their sentimental dross descends to making fatuous analogies with Nazi Germany.

Nalood,1 there is no comparison between battery egg production and concentration camps, for one very good reason

Concentration camps with designed with the primary goal to exterminate its inmates

Battery egg production units lacks that primary objective. Every operator of a battery egg unit is going to maintain the environment at its optimum for egg production and if chooks is anything like women (re female egg producers)….

I will point out, in simple words, so even you can understand
:
women imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps ceased having periods (not ovulating = unhappy) almost immediately they were interred

Now, if there are, as you imply, any sense or comparison between battery egg production and concentration camps … hen egg production, (ovulation ) would cease and the practice of battery eggs farms abandoned, ego.. ovulating chooks = happy chooks.

So I suggest you find some other reason to bolster your feeble view, instead of relying on what is a lame-brained, sentimental notion and a stupidly erroneous analogy between battery egg production and concentration camps

Now, I have more than adequately resolved the error of your reasoning. I suggest we all forget the namby-pamby lisping whines of “animal advocates” who think from a perspective of complete sentimentality and believe that, as Shadow Minister implied “Wind in the Willows” was a biography about a real frog.

Pelican.. I suppose your logon and gender explains your avian solidarity with female chooks : - )

But it does not explain you “seconding” what I have already described as “the debating prowess which I commonly associate as coming from a lump of KFC.

Maybe you could produce some to real argument instead of offering written support to bushbasher’s putrid and pointless garbage.