relda wrote: Reinhold Niebuhr was the only significant voice in American Christianity, including Catholics as well as Protestants, who wrote editorials and who preached and said again and again that the assault on the Jews was a very direct and serious challenge to Christian faith as such, and not just another example of “inhumanity.” His stance placed him at odds with many - his critics say his theology reflects the loss of truthful Christian speech and, hence, of faithful Christian practice.

Dear relda,

The assault on the Jews did not challenge Christian faith. Christian Spain expelled Jews in 1492 and Christian England in 1290. There were many expulsions of Jews from Christian countries and many massacres of Jews by Christian forces. They removed an alien element from Christendom. Bad for Jews. Good for Christianity.

Niebuhr’s attitude was a loss of faithful Christian practice. Anglican Bishop Spong has pointed out that Jew hatred and bigotry is found in the New Testament and is seeking to change Christian attitudes, but such attitudes have been very much part of Christianity.

http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_theTerribleTexts.aspx

BIGOTRY: "No one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6);This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own.

ANTI-SEMITISM: And the people answered, 'His blood be on us and on our children'" (Matt. 27:25); No other verse of Holy Scripture has been responsible for so much violence and so much bloodshed. People convinced that these words conferred legitimacy and even holiness on their hostility have killed millions of Jewish people over history. Far more than Christians today seem to understand, to call the Bible "Word of God" in any sense is to legitimize this hatred reflected in its pages.

One shouldn't assault any group of people, but the record of Christian doctrine and behaviour supports Niebuhr's critics.

I like Niebuhr’s sentiments, but they differed from Christian tradition. His critics were right.

David f reminded us of the many purges of Jews from various parts of Europe, and the UK, from well before Hitler, that well known Roman Catholic, was democratically elected by a grateful nation before they all, apart from Rudd's chum Bonhoffer, whose anti-Semitism remains a moot point I read somewhere, embarked on yet another purge.

Jews were only allowed back into England by Cromwell, as England was pulled apart through yet more religiously motivated Christian-based wars, and shortly after their return, they built their first Synagogue in London.

But even this act of 'compassion' on the part of the English Xtians was only to assist in some madtype 'endtimes' Christian prophecy that required Jews to be planted throughout the world before Jesus could return and lift all the saved to heaven.

And as I recall, the Hitler 'yellow star' Jews had to wear was an English invention from the 13th C., or near enough to that era.

And of course, in those early days, England was still very Roman Catholic.... Hitler's partners in crime in Germany and across Europe.

It's good to know that religion is such a force for 'good' in our world, isn't it?

"Christian Spain expelled Jews in 1492..." - david f.

Pope Alexander VI was especially pleased at the expulsion of the Jews declaring Isabella (a women) and Ferdinand, "Catholic Kings". Jews (and Muslims) had the option to stay in Spain and convert to Christianity or die. Some did offically convert to Christianity, but were persecuted just the same and called merinos (pigs) by gentile Christians. Christianised Jews who were successful were targetted for ill-treatment by gentile Christians well into the sixteenth century.

Christians also persecuted the Pagans after Nicaea and committed genecide against the native American slans, as I have posted on other threads.

Some in Christianity have recognised their past and have tried to change. As relda mentioned Reinhold Niebuhr was the only significant voice in American Christianity against what was happening in Germany.

Since WW2 there have been many voices. Pop John XXIII changed the liturgy eliminating various anti-Jewish references.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostra_Aetate

Part four [of Nostra Aetate] speaks of the bond that ties the people of the 'New Covenant' (Christians) to Abraham's stock (Jews). It states that even though some Jewish authorities and those who followed them called for Jesus' death, the blame for this cannot be laid at the door of all those Jews present at that time, nor can the Jews in our time be held as guilty, thus repudiating an indiscriminate charge of deicide; 'the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God'. The Declaration also decries all displays of antisemitism made at any time by anyone.

Although the Scriptural account of Jews calling for Jesus is highly problematical Nostra Aetate is a great improvement over previous Catholic attitudes.

The Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary, a Lutheran community founded in 1947, by Basilea Schlink stated:

"Instead of being united in love for God, we as Christians have sinned grievously against God's covenant people. Two thousand years of Church history have left a trail of blood: contempt, hatred, hostility, persecution and wholesale slaughter.

Time and again the Jewish people have suffered at the hands of Christians. They have been humiliated, deprived of their rights, accused of murdering God and blamed for every imaginable calamity. During the Crusades, the Inquisition, the pogroms and, most horrific of all, the Holocaust, millions of Jews have suffered flagrant injustice.

At the beginning of the third millennium we can only confess this terrible guilt in deep shame before God and the Jewish people, deploring the involvement of many Christians. We seek His forgiveness for all the anguish that Israel, His chosen people, have suffered. By the grace of God we resolve to turn from these ways."

Some like Archbishop Jensen of Sydney still target Jews for conversion and call non-Christian religions, “tools of Satan.”

Yes, well the Archbishop of Sidderney would know all about Satan and ill-gotten gains wouldn't he?

How much did he and his Temple money-changers lose in their pursuit of wealth and greed?

Was it only hundreds of millions of untaxed loot and booty he lost on the black numbers?

Bring on the Xenophon enquiry and extend it into the depths of these sinning machines we call 'churches'.

And let's not forget the ever growing nexus between the state and church owned-run-affiliated organisations that ply their trade funded by ATO dollars from our back pockets. Let's enquire into that improper relationship too.

There are literally billions of dollars of grace-and-favour loot going to these organisations.

Far better to fund public schools and hofpitals with the proceeds than to hand it over to manipulative charlatans to chuck away seeking manna from heaven, in their shoddy partnership with Satan.

relda,

Please excuse my delay in not responding sooner. I missed your latest post, even though I was looking out.

Why I keep coming back to Tillich is that I am unclear on whether you admire Tillich's without believing in the Christian god or whether you are putting Tillich forward in support of your belief in the Christian god. When I last posed a similar question, your reply was on the Enlightenment.

I know you have drawn Tillich material from Wiki and seem to have read some Polanyi. That's good. We can work with that, for sure. Yet, we need a foundation in your belief or non-belief to progress to new topics.

What I am lacking is an insight into how you hold Tillich in relation to a belief system.

Thanks. I will visit the old OLO links.