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The Forum > Article Comments > A timely reminder of the real limits to growth > Comments

A timely reminder of the real limits to growth : Comments

By Bill McKibben, published 19/10/2009

Thirty years ago a ground breaking book predicted if growth continued unchecked Earth’s ecological systems would be overwhelmed within a century.

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Squeers, I could not have put it better.

It is no good expecting the present developed world to do anything constructive about reigning in our profligate use of energy. Neither is it realistic to expect emerging economies like China and India to slow down their efforts to improve the standards of living of their citizens. It just isn't going to happen. If those presently on the planet continue to reproduce at the current rate we will eventually run into a brick wall when we run out of fuel, clean water and clean air and life will be far from the present Utopia in which we currently find ourselves. By the time the masses do anything about it, it will be far too late. We will then see what Clownfish et al have to say.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 19 October 2009 2:37:12 PM
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As I assert, democracy is only the optimal system in a panglossian world, where people "are" governed by moral compasses, and the biosphere dwarfs human detriment in its ability to adapt and regenerate; such a world is demonstrably absurd. Such an optimistic frontier is no doubt what the founding fathers of the United States thought they'd lighted upon in the access of their enthusiasm (their colonial atrocities rationalised as per the human facility sketched above). But they were naive, and the utopia they envisaged has succumbed both to human corruption and the weight of its insatiable appetite. In light of this new (old) wisdom into the human condition (which ought to be acknowledged rather than rationalised)---the reality of human depredation and self-deception---it is anachronistic and foolhardy to continue as if the dreams of the forefathers had been realised. Democracy has become the tyranny of the masses.
I suggest a novel recourse. With problems like climate change (and other issues, Like nuclear disarmament, inequality etc.), countries have to be signatories to an international convention that overrides parochial politics, whose governments, of whatever persuasion, are thus protected from electoral backlash. Rogue nations would suffer sanctions.
But the problem (climate change etc.) is then addressed methodically and analytically, using expert human and computing power to thoroughly identify both the problem and the solution in detail. "This is what's wrong, and this is how to fix it/deal with it (ethically);" then do it!
The reign of unconscionable and untrammelled avarice must end.
Perhaps the human being can even be reformed!
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 19 October 2009 4:03:52 PM
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"I suggest a novel recourse. With problems like climate change (and other issues, Like nuclear disarmament, inequality etc.), countries have to be signatories to an international convention that overrides parochial politics, whose governments, of whatever persuasion, are thus protected from electoral backlash. Rogue nations would suffer sanctions."

What a wonderfully clear statement of the ultimate green goal: the dismantling of democracy in the name of 'saving the planet'. People are just too committed to independent thought: making up their own minds and looking after their own interests. Religion has lost its power to sway them: what shall we do? Tyranny is the only answer! Who will be appointed the first Green Supremo, I wonder? Jetsetting Al Gore, or the reconstructed Malcolm Turnbull?

Luckily there are some of us who realise how hard democracy had to be fought for, and aren't about to give up those privileges in a hurry. Man the barricades, chaps: the enemies of freedom are on the march!
Posted by Jon J, Monday, 19 October 2009 4:20:34 PM
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Articles like this inevitably remind me of the Great Horse Manure Panic of 1898.

http://www.uctc.net/access/30/Access%2030%20-%2002%20-%20Horse%20Power.pdf

"In 1898 delegates from across the globe gathered in New York City for the world’s first international urban planning conference. One topic dominated the discussion. It was not housing, land use, economic development, or infrastructure. The delegates were driven to desperation by horse manure.

The horse was no newcomer on the urban scene. But by the late 1800s, the problem of horse pollution had reached unprecedented heights. The growth in the horse population was outstripping even the rapid rise in the number of human city dwellers. American cities were drowning in horse manure as well as other unpleasant byproducts of the era’s predominant mode of transportation: urine, flies, congestion, carcasses, and traffic accidents. Widespread cruelty to horses was a form of environmental degradation as well.

The situation seemed dire. In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure. One New York prognosticator of the 1890s concluded that by 1930 the horse droppings would rise to Manhattan’s third-story windows. A public health and sanitation crisis of almost unimaginable dimensions loomed.

And no possible solution could be devised. After all, the horse had been the dominant mode of transportation for thousands of years. Horses were absolutely essential for the functioning of the nineteenth-century city – for personal transportation, freight haulage, and even mechanical power. Without horses, cities would quite literally starve.

All efforts to mitigate the problem were proving woefully inadequate. Stumped by the crisis, the urban planning conference declared its work fruitless and broke up in three days instead of the scheduled ten."

I know, I know, it's not true, it's just a story.

But the message - the pointlessness of unrestrained extrapolation - should be heeded.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 19 October 2009 4:52:27 PM
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Taswegian- excellent points.
I also suggest a need to form contracts and trade deals with companies abroad that use 'green'- or at least fuel-efficient vehicles and machinery and energy saving devices (like in most of northern Europe), or alternatively, public-owned companies that specialize in the manufacture of these devices.

Another is to allow better local veto rights (eg CIR) against developers and industrialists that want to use their area. I'd also advocate the ability to use referendums to demand the above policies.

Squeers- that's strange, as the more democratic countries- where the public ACTUALLY have some kind of say in the running of the country (like Switzerland and Sweden)- are taking the environment very seriously. Sweden in particularly is radically altering their entire infrastructure around green policy.
I'm not aware of any other such country to which you are basing your assumption of democracy on- as they're among the few democracies that allow any extensive public input.
I would easily guess that the majority of Australians would, if they had any say in policies, gladly adopt many green practices if they could (especially as most of them are highly economical)- but as they can't say boo, save for indirectly affecting the absolute mandate of a political party every few years (warts and all), who may have other priorities, naturally nothing gets done.
Posted by King Hazza, Monday, 19 October 2009 7:05:22 PM
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"We were somewhere like this in Britain in 1938-39, and we changed the way we organised our society and industry, to prepare for unavoidable war. We survived the threat of Nazism. We can survive this threat too, once we recognize its true dimensions and respond accordingly."

Yes Tony Kevin. But what will it take for the populace to accept the enormous changes that their governments need to implement? What sort of a shock will trigger a 'war-footing' of the magnitude necessary to effect the conversion to a genuine sustainability paradigm?

It seems to me that such an event will be the crash itself. That is; the one that will be caused by our rampantly continuous-expansionist antisustainability paradigm. By then it will be too late... or it will take a long time and a hell of a lot of pain to rebuild our society and economy.

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"We are witnessing the greatest failure of governance ever."

We sure as hell are, Quick Response.

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"my contention is that democracy fails us in situations like climate change"

It sure does Squeers. Democracy is not only a failure when it comes to climate change or sustainability, it is a HUGE stumbling block! The hard decisions that must be made just cannot be made by democratic governments. They'll just get turfed out at the next election!! It is basically as simple as that! So governments promise to do things that will take us in the right direction, but end up implementing policies that are just piss-weak watered-down version of what we need.

"I suggest a novel recourse...countries have to be signatories to an international convention that overrides parochial politics..."

Yes but, governments will still only agree to piss-weak agreements or else they'll suffer a huge backlash at home. If a government is nearing the end of a political term and its re-election is looking hopeless, then there might be chance of them signing something of the necessary veracity. But of course you'd have to have other countries willing to sign the same thing for it to count for anything!
Posted by Ludwig, Monday, 19 October 2009 7:12:32 PM
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