Houellebecq: <"In fact the only reason anyone would ever bring it up is 'as an apologetic for male aggression or abuse.'

Oh the irony!">

Irony?

I think you'd better explain what's ironic about it.

Pynchme continued:-
6.yes most fathers given the chance ARE good nurturers and i guess iv'e proved that. The important thing in that sentence you wrote is IF GIVEN THE CHANCE. Many fathers arn't given the chance, and even then have to fight for the privelige of bringing up their children just as i did, while the mother almost always gets custody and gets all the free legal aid even if she is a proven abuser. As regards single mothers living in poverty why is it that the ex could afford to go out to the pubs and parties and get drunk 6-7 nights a week [ often leaving our 5/6/7 yo daughter alone at home ] while i could barely afford to go out 1 night a fortnight,and even then only for a couple of drinks, even though i was working. I live in a small city/town and you can go into most of the pubs and see many of these single mothers doing their money on the pokies or booze then the next day these same mothers are down at uniting care begging for a handout because they are broke and their child is hungry. If you don't believe it i challenge you to come to my town and i'll give you a guided tour. For many, their poverty is self inflicted, most of the child support i payed just ended up keeping the local publican rich, not on my daughter. IMO your assertion that 90% of child abusers are male is an out and out lie, in the area of sexual abuse it may be true but in all other categories of abuse including neglect and child murder female perpetrators outnumber male perpetrators by a considerable margin. Once again you bring up that one never comes across people traumatised by NEGLECT and once again i say to you "what about the children who have DIED from neglect" most of which are in the care of their mothers. Isn't that trauma enough?

Houellebecq:"antiseptic, always a victim of the system, feminists, women etc."

Not me, I only post about my own case because I am very familiar with it and I believe it is pretty typical, if the men I have spoken to are any guide. I'm actually very fortunate, because I am able to create work for myself and thus remain free to live my life without interference from the grossly corrupted "system". Most men cannot, so suffer the abuses with varying degrees of resentment or despair.

I do believe that Feminism is a decadent ideology that can only exist because we live in a world in which there is a massive subsidisation of productivity by fossil fuels, which allows a larger class of non-productive people to exist than has historically been the case. It leads nowhere and promises nothing useful or worthwhile to the vast majority of people and it will wither with time. Already I suspect that the current generation has little time for the Dreary Dowagers' laments.

Pynchme:"one never comes across male or female clients who are traumatized by 'neglect' "

Real professionals in the field don't agree with you:

http://tinyurl.com/yg8zmlu
http://tinyurl.com/yl59asa
http://tinyurl.com/ygdfp59
http://tinyurl.com/ykn96wp

Pynchme:"buse of children continues because people (about 90% of whom are male) perpetrate"

Actually, dear, the data that has emerged as a result of FOI requests is that neglect, psychological and physical abuse of children is about 90% committed by either mothers or people associated with mothers in families where the father is not present.

Overwhelmingly, abuse and neglect of children is perptrated by females.

ANTISEPTIC.
Had a look at those links you posted, very interesting. My own daughter was subjected to ALL the categories of neglect mentioned, by her mother. Physical, educational, emotional/psychological and medical. I found the story of the 2 brothers very interesting, especially as regards the younger one who it was mentioned took his anger and frustration out on young children and animals. The sad case of baby p springs to mind, where the mothers new BF had a history of abusing and mutilating animals and who eventually was complicit along with the mother in beating the child to death, i wonder if he was a neglected child.[and no this is not meant as an apology statement for him]. As usual despite over 60 visits from the social workers, nothing was done and a child died an awful death as a result. I would venture to suggest that the reason pynchme might not see too many people whose problems stem from neglect is that a not inconsiderable number of them are either in jail, in a special care facility or dead.
Getting back on topic, most fathers tend to be quite strict and protective of their daughters especially as regards sexualisation, dress and boyfriends etc. While many mothers just don't care and indeed even encourage such. Only recently there was a case of a 12 yo girl whose mother allowed her much older BF to sleep over with her. The fathers protests of course as usual fell on deaf ears. Eventually he was given custody but of course it was too late then as she was pregnant. I know of quite a few single mothers even in my own town who allow this to happen, and even more who dress their daughters in revealing and sexually explicit clothes and who allow them to put on make up which makes them look much older than they really are. I have seen girls even in the pubs who you know are only about 13/14/15 yo but who because of the way they are dressed and made up look 18/19/20.

eyeinthesky: I don't have any problem with fathers being more involved with the birthing and raising of their children. In fact I find it a bit sad that so much fuss is made over the pregnant and birthing woman (sok - the fuss is ok) but that so many fathers are left sort of in an outer circle. I think the involvement should start as soon as the pregnancy is known and that he should get a bit of fussing too. How do you think most men would feel about that?

As for women "getting all the legal aid"; I always thought that Legal Aid was available to the first applicant. The second one applying is refused because Legal Aid say they would have a conflict of interest in providing services to both partners. I know MANY women who are endlessly harrassed through the courts; who don't have the money to fight it.

A few posts back you mentioned suicide - although there have been substantial fluctuations; the suicide rate has been going down for nearly a century. Present levels are comparable to rates in the 1920s or 30s. That more men suicide has always been the case; but it's attributed primarily to using more decisive means. Women make more attempts. Personally I think that childhood sexual abuse accounts for a lot of male, especially young male, suicide - as well as alcohol abuse; chronic drug use and other problems. It certainly underlies many of the suicides and attempts made by women. Btw - in a survey of adult men, 4 % claimed to have been sexually abused as children.
That's 4 in a 100 - 4 times the number of people diagnosed with schizophrenia.

That said, people who are sexually abused as children don't all go suicidal or develop major mental health problems; but even for those people who soldier on, the burden of the memory and the betrayal of trust inherent in it, is something they have to manage forever.

Sorry it's taken a while to get back - had other things to do.

Antiseptic: One of the fallacies that we're falling into here, as did the commentators in your link about the two boys, is that each abuse type happens separately. I think that if you look at the stats you'll find that the figures for types of abuse are higher than the number of children, and families, involved. That is, one child often suffers multiple types of abuse.

I would also say that neglected children are more vulnerable than most to sexual abuse because many of them will be seeking affection and some selfish adults will take advantage of that neediness; compounding the effects of any other type of suffering the child is experiencing.

I think we've all to a greater or lesser extent agreed that men can be nurturing. So then, in your two bro case study - why is there no expectation that the father give his favourite son emotional nourishment; kind touches and the like ? Research shows that if a child has even one reliable caregiver the impact of abuse or neglect by another is lessened.

It might be that the most troublesome son identified very closely with his father - his father was abusive and cruel. If the child is told from when he's a tot that he's just like his father and he is the one the father favours; and observation of his brother being beaten by his father demonstrates to him that one can be a victim, or one can be more powerful... then it's not very surprising if he also turns out to be abusive, cruel and emotionally unavailable.

Attachment issues and family dynamics are very complex matters - I don't think any one case study can be extrapolated to whole populations, nor do I think that's their purpose.

Here's just a little outline on attachment:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/915447-overview