Has Lisa considered that the prime reason for the existence of terrorists is the appalling foreign policy of the USA since WW2?

There is another reason for the US being in Afghanistan.Just above it there is Azerbaijan,Uzbeckistan and Kazakhstan,they have oil and gas reserves comparable to the that of the Persian gulf,but to make it economically viable,a pipline needs to be built to the ocean and Afghanistan/Pakistan is a good route.The threat of terrorism has been over exaggerated to justify the invasion of many countries.

The weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was a lie.Saddham was an USA generated dictator.

All is not what it seems and we should not swallow the tripe peddled by the Corporate media who have other financial interests associated with their companies.

The premise of this article that Afghanistan and Pakistan have been used as a safe haven for terrorists to strike at the US, other European nations, Australia, Indonesia etc., has never been proven.

Colin Powell's white paper proving the guilt of Islamist extremists operating from Afghanistan, promised to the UN in 2001 was never delivered.

The fact that not one single person with a proven link to the 9/11 atrocity has been captured after almost 8 years of occupation of Afghanistan and incursions into Pakistan is surely a very good clue that it is well past time to begin looking elsewhere to find the perpetrators of 9/11.

A very good place to start would be the holding of a proper inquiry into 9/11 in contrast to the sham 9/11 Commission and NIST 'investigations', as 80,000 residents of New York City have asked (see http://nyccan.org).

The 9/11 controversy has been discussed at length on the forum 9/11 Truth at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2166&page=83

A more recent discussion occurred on Larvatus Prodeo at http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/09/12/saturday-salon-208/#comment-827284

There can't be too many people left who still swallow the official story about the reason for the invasion of Iraq.

Representatives of the Taliban, who Reagan once hailed as "freedom fighters", were honored guests in Texas while still implicated by association in the attack on the USS Cole and actions in Somalia.

The US knew about their relationship with Al Queda (because they created it) but were prepared to look the other way while it suited them.

After negotiations for the Unacol Gas pipeline failed it was known and reported in the media that the US intended to have troops "on the ground in Afghanistan by October" - some months before the events of September 2001. The post-invasion government appointees had significant ties to that company.

Afghanistan and Iraq have very little to do with national security and almost everything to do with securing energy supplies and distribution.

Has Arjay considered that there wouldn't be break and enters if all those affluent people would stop buying stuff.

And that's the truth!

Afghanistan probably was a haven for terrorism. It probably will be again. Ditto Pakistan. And ditto a whole host of failed states. We can't occupy them all.

However, after getting in a few lucky blows while no one was looking, the terrorists have not shown themselves capable of inflicting serious damage on Western countries. It is now more than 8 years since 9/11 and four years since the London 7/7 bombings. Terrorist networks in Western countries have been disrupted. The security forces have been expanded and keep "persons of interest" under surveillance.

In short domestic security services seem to have done an excellent job of containing the terrorist threat which is probably all you can do.

I am under-whelmed by the threat.

A return of the brutal Taleban would be a tragedy for Afghans, especially Afghan women. But there are many appalling regimes in the world. We can't go and occupy every country that is ruled by bloodthirsty governments.

Under the circumstances I cannot see that Afghanistan is worth the life of one more Australian or NATO soldier or the expenditure of one more dollar. If need be the domestic security services can be given greater resources which would be both cheaper and less costly both in terms of Australian lives and dollars.

And if a new Taleban government does allow Afghanistan to be used as a base for terrorism the West has the power to destroy the government by giving arms and aid to dissident non-Pashtun tribal groups. A clear warning that such a response is on the cards should be enough to deter a new Taleban regime who probably don’t want to another spell in the mountains.

Remember, it was the non-Pashtun warlords that actually overthrew the Talben regime with a bit of aid from the US. Divide and conquer would still work.

In fact arming such non-Pashtun groups would probably keep any new Taleban government occupied with internal security matters.

What is happening?

Afganistan was the good war, ask The Blowtorch Kev07 and Obama's crowd.

I would have thought wars should be won if they are going to fought.

Afghanistan sitting on a gold mine.
The real reason we’re fighting the war?

The US Geological Survey estimates there are 700 billion cubic metres of gas and 300 million tons of oil in Afghanistan. Afghan Mining Minister Mohammad Ibrahim Adel said there are also significant deposits of copper, iron, gold, coal -- as well as emeralds and rubies.

Webmaster's Commentary:
And Opium....lots of opium...it wasnt till taliban destroyed the wholr crop did usa see an issue worthy of invading..

another lie is about egsactly who is wiping who off the map
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD257909
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=107982&sectionid=351020202
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGYyNc5O2Hs
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10814.shtml
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/israel-the-untouchables/
http://politicaltheatrics.org/2009/10/06/israel-the-us-and-the-goldstone-report/
http://politicaltheatrics.org/2009/10/06/the-land-of-martyrs/
http://www.apotheke-adhoc.de/Nachrichten/Wissenschaft+und+Forschung/8049.html

http://www.history.com/shows.do?episodeId=452430&action=detail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbTCmSdHvrk&feature=player_embedded
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.e272eaa74dccc30f21c6ff7638b0f37b.461&show_article=1

Lots of Opium!

The USA did not have declare war on the Afghan people in order to get a pipline though their country.They had good relations with the Taliban after defeating the USSR and could have quite easily done a deal with them ie paying them compensation for the pipline and giving their people education instead of creating hate for the West.

Hamed Karsai worked for Occidental Petroleum in Afghanistan before becoming leader of Afghanistan.

Dick Cheney is the ex-CEo of Haliburton the company that has the technical ability to build these pipelines.I have no problem with companies doing ligitimate deals with Central Asian Companies to access their oil.I do however find it reprehensible that wars are created for nothing but profit and we accept this BS about Al Queda and the war on terror being fact.

*...it wasnt till taliban destroyed the wholr crop did usa see an issue worthy of invading..*

Ah of course lol, it was more opium that the US was really chasing.

That and a bit of oil was enough for them to seemingly create
the Al Queda conspiracy, blow up some embassies and hoodwink
the public. That CIA did it one again!

At least we have our resident OLO comedians!

I thought you were a most exceptional comedian, yourself, Yabby.

It was hilarious the way you were able to portray someone who was totally fooled by the succession of obviously fake video tapes in which 'Osama bin Laden' 'confessed' to orchestrating the 9/11 terrorist attacks. (see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2166#49893)

daggett,Yabby and Pericles have their own hidden agendas.They cannot explain the fact that 3 buildings came down at virtually the free fall acceleration of gravity.It is impossible for this to happen if the kinetic energy is being used to crush in a pancake style the lower floors.There was no evidence of pancaking and molten steel flowed like streams.They have the scientific evidence of re-acted and un-reacted nano-thermite.

All these two can do now is to resort to derision,in the faint hope of labelling anyone who can think for themselves as lunatic conspiracy theorists.

I guess that it is the fate of every second thread on OLO to be hijacked by the 9-11 conspiracy nutters.

Sad, really.

*Yabby and Pericles have their own hidden agendas*

Sheesh, now my cover has been blown. I was going to keep those
monthly CIA payments a secret! Never mind, Arjay will never
notice that his phone is being tapped already :)

Has any of you cowboys ever thought through the conspiracy theory
that you are claiming? Do you know how many people would need to
be involved? No whistleblower claiming 50 million$ from the press,
which is what they would easily pay for that kind of a story if
there was any real evidence?

The thing is, discussing this with you lot is as pointless as
discussing religion and evolution theory with runner. So most
OLO posters realise that its purely a waste of time and simply
tolerate your nonsense without comment. An open forum like OLO
invites fruitcakes and we have our share of them.

Arjay, the design of the twin towers was pretty well discussed on
international television, after 911. Unlike many concrete skyscrapers,
these things were built lightweight, with light steel
trusses supporting 4 inch concrete floors, lots of cladding on the
outside.

Once you heat steel, it starts to lose its strength and bends.
Steel is great, when used as designed, but when it bends out of
shape, it soon snaps. Add all that weight and heat, you saw what
happened. But this was discussed to death on international tv, I am
not going to waste alot of time on it.

Dagget watches U-tube and its never occured to him that what he
watches might be a forgery. Osama did in fact admit to being part
of the 911 plan, just on on Daggets video. But the mountain
of evidence about Al Queda is far larger then that. Just ask the
Pakistanis, they have to deal with these religious nuts every day
and their news is full of it.

But of course its all the CIA, I forgot. Blowing up Australian
tourists in Bali was a mere diversionary tactic, all those people
involved were actors on the CIA payroll too it seems

Arjay wrote, "Yabby ... [has his] own hidden [agenda]"

Arjay, I think you will find that Yabby is actually with us and not against us.

Sometimes supporters of the 9/11 Truth Movement, rather than arguing our case directly and openly as we are now attempting to do, choose, instead, to play the role of obviously ridiculous parodies of those defending the Official US Government explanation of 9/11 in order to better show up the underlying illogicality of the case they put in real life.

Note Yabby's abysmal pretended grasp of the structural design of the Twin towers and of the properties steel when heated to several hundred degrees at most by the remnants of the aviation fuel that did not burn in the air around the towers.

The fact that if structural steel were as likely to fail when subject to such relatively small fires as there were in the Twin Towers, and Building 7, as Yabby is pretending to argue, then hundreds of other steel framed buildings should also have been completely destroyed by fires by now, when, in fact, not one other ever has, is a dead give away.

Note also Yabby's conspicuous lack of reference to any of the sources upon which he bases his clearly ludicrous and unscientific views.

And, finally, also, note that Yabby still pretends not to have realised that all the supposed 'confessions' of Osama bin Laden are obvious fakes.

---

Pericles complained, "it is the fate of every second thread on OLO to be hijacked by the 9-11 conspiracy nutters."

Actually, Pericles, if you had read the article, you would have understood that its central premise is that it is necessary to remain in Afghanistan in order to defeat a world wide conspiracy of Islamist extremists the purpose of which is to launch yet further 9/11-style terrorist attacks against Western nations from what was its sanctuary in Afghanistan.

So, this discussion had already been, as you put it, "hijacked by the 9-11 conspiracy nutters" even before either Arjay or myself had made our first contribution to this discussion.

That's an interesting angle, daggett.

>>So, this discussion had already been, as you put it, "hijacked by the 9-11 conspiracy nutters" even before either Arjay or myself had made our first contribution to this discussion.<<

I noticed this trend on another thread.

You are pretending that the official US Government explanation of 9/11 is a story put out by "conspiracy nutters", while your bunch of fruit-loops are the "truth seekers".

Applause, for your acts of pure bastardry on the English language.

Orwell would be proud of you.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the facts.

At every opportunity, either you or Arjay bleats claptrap like "They cannot explain the fact that 3 buildings came down at virtually the free fall acceleration of gravity" or other such dross.

The fact is, you cannot, either.

All you can do is parrot what some fringe-dweller has posted on the internet, and pretend that you "understand" it.

You don't.

You talk of "obviously fake video tapes", but you have no way of knowing. You just repeat someone else's random collection of circumstances, knitted together into a lookit-me, aren't-I-clever grab-bag of loony-tunes conspiracy.

Arjay talks - as if he has the faintest clue whereof he speaks - of "the scientific evidence of re-acted and un-reacted nano-thermite". An immense and convoluted theory, that includes the connivance of an entire security firm to secretly plant thousands of tons of explosives, is built from a handful of residual dust.

Whose constituion, and the reasons for it being thus constituted, are way beyong Arjay's ability to determine.

It's just gossip. Writ large. That's all.

To pour scorn on a "Yabby's conspicuous lack of reference to any of the sources" when your own "sources" are in simply the places where bunches of paranoids gather together, is pathetically and transparently self-serving.

Accusing others of "having no proof", in such circumstances, would be laughable, if it wasn't so abjectly sad.

Pericles wrote, "The fact is, you cannot [explain the fact that 3 buildings came down at virtually the free fall acceleration of gravity], either."

From this it appears that Pericles has conceded a key point of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

That point is that the 'collapses' of the three World Trade Center buildings have not been explained by the body charged with investigating those 'collapses', that is, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).

Pericles, is it acceptable to you or not acceptable to you that the causes of the three unprecedented engineering disasters which occurred on 11 September 2001 remain forever a mystery?

It is not acceptable to the 9/11 Truth Movement and that is why they are demanding a new inquiry.

If we are wrong about the controlled demolition hypothesis, then a proper inquiry will show that to be the case, however, at the moment, no other hypothesis begins to adequately explain the physical and eyewitness evidence related to those collapses.

---

I am sorry to see that by having referred to Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists as "conspiracy nutters" I upset you so much, but how else should I refer to a group of people who so doggedly cling to such a ridiculous unscientific beliefs in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

A succinct outline of the Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory has just been posted to http://911blogger.com/node/21580 :

Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah...

Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes...

And hangover or not, they manage to give the world's most sophisticated air defense system the slip...

Unphased by leaving their "How to Fly a Passenger Jet" guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely...

Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two... and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically - through their own mass - at free-fall speed, for the first time in history.

Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground... only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI...

...Meanwhile down in Washington...

Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing...

Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little...

Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world's most heavily defended building...

...all without a single shot being fired.... or ruining the nicely mowed lawn... and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video...

...Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania...

So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later...

(tobecontinued)

Oh dear, daggett.

>>(tobecontinued)<<

Must you?

Really, this has nothing to do with the truth of anything, has it?

It is just a way for you to feel important.

I suspect that you are unhappy in your unfulfilling job. Your family thinks you are weird. And the most-dialled number on your mobile is the one for nasal delivery technology.

So you feel the need to fill the void with fantasy.

There's nothing wrong with that.

I just wish you wouldn't inflict it on us.

Pericles, Daggett:

Here is MY VERY OWN 9/11 CONSPIRACY THEORY

Most of the "issues" raised by 9/11 conspiracy theory nutters (like Robert Fisk*) are more than adequately answered in an excellent article in Popular Mechanics, "Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report"

See: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1

Many conspiracy theorists makes much of the fact that the temperature at which jet fuel burns is well below the melting point of steel. They therefore wonder how the structural steel in the twin towers could have failed so spectacularly.

The usual answer is that the temperature of the burning jet fuel was sufficient to weaken the structural steel resulting in a collapse.

However, maybe that is not the full answer.

The Twin Towers were built by the Port of New York Authority. Back then construction in NY as well as the Port of New York Authority itself was infiltrated by organised crime. It probably still is today.

So maybe the real reason for the Twin Towers' precipitate collapse is that there was not enough steel in the structure to begin with. Or maybe the steel was of an inferior grade. Maybe the cash equivalent of the difference between the steel that ought to have been used in the construction of the twin towers, and the steel that was actually used, is sitting in the bank accounts of a few Mafia dons and the building inspectors who were paid to sign-off on inferior construction.

Think about it.

The conspiracy theory nutters ask you to believe that an administration made up of people so inept that they are incapable of wiping their own backsides plotted and successfully executed 9/ 11.

I am asking you to believe that the Mafia conducted a successful scam.

Which scenario is more believable?

*See http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-even-i-question-the-truth-about-911-462904.html

(continuedfromabove)

And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants... except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana...

...Further south in Florida...

President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read "My Pet Goat" to a class full of primary school children... shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger...

...In New York...

World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously...

While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the 'New Pearl Harbor' catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination...

And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports...

---

Pericles wrote, "Really, this has nothing to do with the truth of anything, has it?"

Pericles, this is the 9/11 Commission's version of September 11, of course not in so many words, but the essential details are the same. Are you now agreeing with me that this did not happen?

Pericles wrote, "I just wish you wouldn't inflict it on us."

Who's 'us', Pericles?

Whom are you claiming to be more bothered by contributions which challenge the pretext for the current Afghan war than your tedious debaters' tricks and personal attacks?

---

Pericles wrote, "I suspect that you are unhappy in your unfulfilling job. ..."

What has this got to do with the topic at hand, Pericles?

I guess it should come as no surprise that someone, who is prepared to peddle the lie about 9/11 that has allowed Bush, Blair and Howard to launch wars that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, would also be capable of stooping to making such a statement in order to score a point in a debate.

I believe that 80,000 plus Iraqis died so that they no longer lived under Saddam Hussein.
I wonder how many Afghanis will have to die so that they can be saved from the Taliban/Al Quaeda forces?

Stevenlmeyer,

I don't consider Robert Fisk a supporter of the 9/11 Truth movement. I think he moved timidly in that direction for a while, but these days his writings ignore 9/11 Truth. (See, for example, http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-on-bin-laden-at-50-438729.html)

The Popular Mechanics article is total and complete bunk and has been utterly torn to minute shreds years ago.

Why not put some of their 'arguments' onto this forum and see whether or not they stand up for more than five minutes?

As for your theory about the collapses all being the result of the Mafia supplying cheap inferior building material:

If this was the case, do you think it likely that that would have caused the failure of three buildings all on one day and never once before and never once since?

All the material was, in fact, certified as capable of easily withstanding what occurred on 9/11. We know this from Kevin Ryan (http://www.ultruth.com/) a whistleblower who worked for Unerwriters' Laboratory, which, on behalf of insurance companies, certified the quality of building materials.

All the same, there is nothing wrong with putting up such a theory such as yours for a proper investigation to consider.

However, there has never been a proper investigation.

In case anyone is interested, there is a long forum discussion going on 9/11 here: http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/09/12/saturday-salon-208/#comment-831635

Unfortunately, just as happened at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2166&page=83 trolls are intent on cluttering the forum up with personal attacks, red herrings, straw man demolition exercises, etc. but I still think it is a worthwhile discussion.