Thanks for that link, DeepNorthener.

“Trust me, I’m the chaplain.”

Says it all really, doesn't it?

"If the belief in god were natural, there would be no need to teach it. Children would possess it as well as adults, the layman as the priest, the heathen as much as the missionary. We don't have to teach the general elements of human nature; the five senses, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. They are universal; so would religion be were it natural, but it is not. On the contrary, it is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are Atheists, and were religion not inculcated into their minds they would remain so. Even as it is, they are great sceptics, until made sensible of the potent weapon by which religion has ever been propagated, namely, fear - fear of the lash of public opinion here, and of jealous, vindictive God hereafter. No; there is no religion in human nature, nor human nature in religion. It is purely artificial, the result of education, while Atheism is natural, and, were the human mind not perverted and bewildered by the mysteries and follies of superstition, would be universal."

Ernestine L. Rose, "A Defense of Atheism" (1878, Women Without Superstition ed. Annie Laurie Gaylor, Madison, WI: FFRF, 1997), p. 82.

dan, you were debating? (what about mander and Captain Preachy? were they debating too?)

i agree you've stepped up from ignorance to denial, but i didn't see much to respond to in what you'd written, and thought others had done the job admirably. in any case, i simply hadn't had time to look at OLO for the last week.

if you are still here, and want me to respond, i will.

Priscillian

That quote from Ernestine L. Rose, "A Defense of Atheism" was superb reasoning and eloquently written, will have to track down a copy of the book if I can.

We are not born hating, although the evidence is there in a baby's smile we are born loving; religion and other forms of bigotry teach us to hate. Thank you for that wonderful quote.

My wife wrote the following

Religious Education in Queensland - Marie Fisher

Xiao Xiao was six years old and spoke no English when she came to stay with us. When we enrolled her in the local State School we were asked, "Do you want her to receive religious education? David and I looked at each other. "What the heck!", said our eyes, "She's not going to understand it anyway, but at least she won't be isolated from her classmates."

Still, I was curious to know how present day religious education was taught. Mrs. M, the class teacher, said I was welcome to sit in on any class so I turned up one Wednesday morning in time for Religious Education and squatted on a tiny chair at the back of the classroom. Mrs. M took a seat nearby after she had got the children settled quietly on the floor at the front.

Now - onto the scene, in an aura of bottled springtime, silk skirts swishing and high heels clicking, swept Mrs. Religious Education looking more like a company executive than a teacher of first graders.

The class began with her reciting a prayer after which she told the children, "Now you all say 'Ay - men'."

As I scribbled down notes on the proceedings I was aware of murmuring and wriggling at the front of the room. Attention was waning even before the lesson had properly begun.

"And God said," Mrs. RE's voice was growing shrill, "Sit down everyone!"

"And God said..........Sh! - Ex-cuse me!"

The lesson for today was this: If you love God and serve him, HE WILL ALWAYS PROTECT YOU. It was repeated many times.

Here are some excerpts I managed to get down:

"This is a true story. Noah's ark was as big as an ocean liner even though they didn't have the technology they have today. God drowned all the people in the flood because they were VERY NAUGHTY, but he saved Noah and his family because they loved and served him. Look at the rainbow."

continued

continued

Abraham and Lot "They loved God and served him so he blessed them. They had sooo many sheep and cattle. God wants to bless everyone, but he can't because they won't listen to him."

"In those days (Abraham's) they didn't have a Bible, but the people knew that God loved them because Abraham told the children stories every day about Noah and Moses and Jesus, no, excuse me. So they just knew just like you know that your Mummy and Daddy loves you."

"Ruth and Naomi lived in a country where they worshipped many different gods. All I can say is yucky yucky yucky. Naomi wanted to leave and go to her own people and Ruth said, 'I love you so much I will go with you and love your God too.'"

I doubt that the children managed to absorb even as much of the word flow as I managed to scribble down. Wriggles and clamour were met with ever more irate "Ex-cuse mes", and several times Mrs. M had to step in with quiet authority to restore calm.

Now came the story of Ruth, Boaz and the barley with the children chaotically acting out barley harvest.

"So Ruth and Boaz got married and had a baby and that was very special because out of their line Jesus would be born one day. So you see how God always protects his people who love and serve him.

Next we came to Gideon. Mrs. RE handed out paper trumpets with the instruction, "Don't blow them yet!" Everybody blew madly.

"Stand up a couple of you!" The whole class was on its feet instantly. Two children were chosen - one to be Gideon and one an angel with flapping wings. Chaos reigned. Mrs M again restored order. More chaos.

"If you can't behave we can't finish the story!"

Now there was just time for a final prayer amid noise and
wriggling - no "Ay- men."