Dear David,
We disagree. We don’t agree to disagree.

I have not confused democracy and discrimination. In every country in the world I assume there is discrimination against minority groups. That is part of the human condition. Discrimination itself does not negate democracy.

However, when law sanctions the discrimination and the country makes distinctions among its citizens on the basis of ethnicity and religion then the discrimination negates democracy.

Lack of civil marriage, the discrimination of the law of return, inequity of social services as well as others I could cite are all examples of discrimination by the state of Israel.

My ancestors all came from Russia where the state sponsored discrimination against Jews on various grounds. In Iran and Syria the state also discriminates against Jews.

I have lived in Australia, the United States and the Netherlands. I am sure that some Australians, Americans and Dutch would discriminate against me because I am Jewish. However, the law of those countries does not discriminate against me because I am a Jew.
Considering the many places and times Jews have been discriminated against by the law of the country we were living in I do not think it is right for us to do it to others.

However, to keep a Jewish state the state must do it to others. Therefore, I do not support a Jewish state.

I am shocked that a Jew defends discrimination by government on the basis of ethnicity or religion. You have done that to defend Israel. I think Israel is bad for the Jews because it has caused a Jew to defend the indefensible. Discrimination by government on the basis of ethnicity or religion is indefensible. Yet support for Israel has put you in a position of sanctioning something that you would possibly think as wrong under other circumstances.

Does bad become good when Israel does it? Have we established a Jewish state to legitimise the wrong done to us by doing it to others?

how can u claim that the Jordanians and Palestanians r the same there r cultural, language, religious and ANCESTRAL differences and u dismiss these. u blame the Jordanians 4 wat has happened to the Palestanians. that they should have formed a palestanian state when it controled the west bank? how could they when they were trying 2 recover from war, the palestanian dispora by the Israeli profiteering which lead them 2 defend itself from the uprising of islamic palestanian radicals who sought 2 destroy Jordan. the Hamshimites have done more 2 try 2 find peace 4 all and support the Palestanians (than any other nation. u dare dismiss and degrade their achievements.
u want a 2 nation state: 1 Jewish and 1 palestanian at the expense of Jordan. the concept of a nation state is a modern, westen ideology. using ur idea of a nation would mean that modern Israel doesnt exist. 4 it was 'a product of a pen'. it was done bcause of WW2 and the need for Western imperalistic expansion in the middle east. u say that it followed UN guidleines? the UN is 1 of the most corrupt legal organisations in the world! it only helps who can benefit them!
u dismiss a 1 nation plan because it would mean that the Jews would have 2 change their stance and u dont want that u just want 1 side 2 change.
this 1 nation should include gaza and the west bank and all of modern Israel 4 thats wat there all fighting 4 not jordan! this should b a secular, multicultural state like any other with equal rights and opportunities.
u speak of compensation 4 all. its not realistic! what of the indigenous cultures of western colonies? Have they been compensated? wat form is this compensation in? land ... money will then whose land and money?
u dismiss facts and opinion that oppose and disprove ur points. u use the advantage of hindsight and ur comfortable spot on ur high horse in a comfortable Aus home.
u want peace at the expense of others.

# Mishi

In saying Jordanians and Palestinians are one and the same people I am relying on Arab spokesmen such as Yasser Arafat,King Hussein, Crown Prince Hassan, Farouk Kadoumi and Abu Iyad who said so on numerous occasions.

In saying that Jordan comprises 77% of the former territory of Palestine I am relying on the League of Nations which established the boundaries of Palestine in 1922 when it granted Great Britain the mandate to reconstitute the Jewish national Home in Palestine.

Redrawing the boundaries between Israel and Jordan (and possibly Egypt) to incorporate the Arab populated areas of the West Bank and Gaza within the newly created boundaries of Jordan (and possibly Egypt)and the Jewish populated areas of the West Bank within the newly created boundaries of Israel still remains the best solution to reuniting West Bank Arabs and Gazan Arabs with their brethren Arabs in Jordan (and possibly Egypt} and granting them self determination within those existing Arab states.

Under this proposal no one - either Arab or Jew - would be uprooted from his current home or business.

It is a compromise solution designed to end 120 years of conflict. I believe that until it is embraced by both Jews and Arabs the prospects of peace remain very bleak indeed.

In its broader meaning as a geographical term, Palestine can refer to an area that includes contemporary Israel and the Palestinian territories, parts of Jordan, and parts of Lebanon and Syria. In its narrow meaning, it can refer to the area within the boundaries of the former British Mandate of Palestine (1920-1948) west of the Jordan River; the Country, or State of Palestine, comprising territory in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; or to Proposals for a Palestinian state in line with the pre-1967 borders.

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According to the Jewish Encyclopedia published between 1901-1906:

Palestine extends, from 31° to 33° 20"; N. latitude. Its southwest point (at Raphia = Tell Rifa;, southwest of Gaza) is about 34° 15"; E. longitude, and its northwest point (mouth of the Litani) is at 35° 15"; E. longitude, while the course of the Jordan reaches 35° 35"; to the east. The west-Jordan country has, consequently, a length of about 150 English miles from north to south, and a breadth of about 23 miles at the north and 80 miles at the south. The area of this region, as measured by the surveyors of the English Palestine Exploration Fund, is about 6,040 square miles. The east-Jordan district is now being surveyed by the German Palästina-Verein, and although the work is not yet completed, its area may be estimated at 4,000 square miles. This entire region, as stated above, was not occupied exclusively by the Israelites, for the plain along the coast in the south belonged to the Philistines, and that in the north to the Phenicians, while in the east-Jordan country the Israelitic possessions never extended farther than the Arnon (Wadi al-Mujib) in the south, nor did the Israelites ever settle in the most northerly and easterly portions of the plain of Bashan. To-day the number of inhabitants does not exceed 650,000. Palestine, and especially the Israelitic state, covered, therefore, a very small area, approximating that of the state of Vermont.

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To define Palestine as the British Mandate is a definition which is no longer relevant.

David Singer wrote:

"In saying Jordanians and Palestinians are one and the same people I am relying on Arab spokesmen such as Yasser Arafat, King Hussein, Crown Prince Hassan, Farouk Kadoumi and Abu Iyad who said so on numerous occasions."

The spokesmen were promoting a unity which isn't there. It was a political statement rather than an ethnic reality. It is not the way in which Palestinians refer to themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

The first widespread use of "Palestinian" as an endonym to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the local Arabic-speaking population of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I [That was before the Mandate], and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921. After the creation of Israel, the exodus of 1948, and more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state.

Palestinian nationalism has risen in response to Jewish nationalism and did not encompass Jordan or Trans-Jordan as it was called before it became a state.

#davidf

Palestine as designated under the Mandate for Palestine is relevant today because of the provisions of Article 80 of the UN Charter and the PLO Covenant. Transjordan comprised 77% of Palestine until 1946 when it was granted independence by Great Britain but had been barred to Jewish settlement during the Mandate which was only permitted within the remaining 23% which is today called Israel,the West Bank and Gaza.

Reunification of the heavily populated Arab areas of the West Bank with Jordan would return those Arab residents to the position that attained between 1948-1967. This can come about by the simple expedient of redrawing the boundary between Jordan and Israel.

Your prognosis is a recipe for more war and suffering for both Arabs and Jews. You can argue ad infinitum that that there is a difference between a "Palestinian" and a Jordanian" and ignore what Arab leaders have themselves said.

Perhaps you might be more persuaded by Articles 1 and 2 of the PLO Charter which state:

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Jordan is part of that territorial unit. Reunifying it with the Arab populated areas of the West Bank accords with history, geography and demography and allocates sovereignty in the last remaining non-sovereign area of the Mandate between the Arabs and the Jews. It will result in the Arabs exercising sovereignty in about 80% of former Palestine and the Jews in about 20%.

It may not be the complete solution from the Arab or Jewish viewpoint but I believe it is the most attainable solution without resort to further wars.