Pericles, sadly these people, as an extension of their deluded state, insist that they are being persecuted, just like their mythical hero, and that the world is in the grip of 'aggessive secularism', which they mistake for atheism whenever they get the chance.

Poor George Pell, Bishop Tom Frame, and the mad crew at the ASL, all believe that they alone have the answer, oh, I nearly forgot Danny Naliah, the guy who blamed the Victorian bushfires on the abortion laws in that state, which involves complete subjugation to the 'elders' of 'their' Church.

Each of these people, and the crews they seek to represent, do indeed feel they are as you described them 'not being' here:

"Imagine a world in which the Sells in our society were forced underground. It would provide their views with a dangerous form of legitimacy - that of the suppressed martyr".

As far as they are concerned, they are living below the streets of Rome every day (which must be hard for St. Peter the Vatican Unbeliever)and are being hunted down by EVIL SECULARISTS

Oh Pericles, what a pompous person you seem to be. Ticking off one of your less relaxed comrades and then indulging in your own egregious trivialising of a long tradition and faith containing a founding story of every freedom we have to live and enjoy. Such behaviour is both hypocritical and demeaning of the name of an Ancient Greek Statesman.

A hardened heart was a condition warned of through the Scriptures that brings a loss of joy; a joy in peace that itself emanated from the fundamental Hebrew story of God's love that finds its fullest expression in Jesus Christ as the New Covenant.

Now you cannot write off the above as religiosity as it is simply stating a fact of religious history that has long been with us. You of course do not accept it as it is essentially a life-faith state of being. However yours and my stories are enmeshed in it - faith or no faith.

In fact Sell's work would find its fullest benefit if read and considered by his fellow people of faith. His is a call back to the roots. It is a mark of the faithfuls' passivity borne through ignorance and/or self satisfied comfort that too few participate.

The thoughts propounded in the Post Secular age movement place real pressure on the likes of Pericles to grow up and be real citizens.

Trav,

1. As an adolescent Hitler maintained the Jews invented Christianity. However, Hitler was a Christian in adulthood:

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.” (Mein Kampf)

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” (Mein Kampf)

“In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.” (Stuttgart, 1933)

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction … all character training and religion must be derived from faith.” (Vatican Concord 1933)

2. Given Stalin’s cruel deeds no one could reasonably call him a secular humanist. The secularists, who post here, would not own him.
Even Stalin falls short of the Christian Tsar Ivan, whom unlike the heinous monarchs of the Christian inquisitions, personally participated in torturing people. He created a special order of monks to torture people. Mass was followed by “extended orgies of sex, rape and torture by the Christians … Ivan would rise and read sermons on Christian virtues”.

3. Minh Hai (Pol Pot) like Christians persecuted Muslims. Even before the murderous Christian Crusades, Christians quashed other believers in gods.

After Constantine, Christians were like today’s Taliban, destroying other society’s cultures. In between their activities in the Opium trade and the slave trade and witch hunts, Christians destroyed many Islander cultures too.

Hey Oliver,

[As an adolescent Hitler maintained the Jews invented Christianity. However, Hitler was a Christian in adulthood:]

.....And you proceed to supply quotes from Mein Kampf, conveniently ignoring the later source I gave (Table Talk, mostly quotes from the 1940's) which outlines what Hitler really thought, outside of the propaganda and politics of it all.

[Given Stalin’s cruel deeds no one could reasonably call him a secular humanist. The secularists, who post here, would not own him.]

Given the Irish priests cruel deeds no one could reasonably say that they follow Christian teaching. The Christians, who post here, would not own them.

Touche.

[Minh Hai (Pol Pot)]

Was an atheist.

Stormbay, go away, come again another day, when you've got something to say, which makes some kind of sense. For someone who rants about "psychobabble", you do a lot of it yourself. And once again, you provide little if any justification for your comments, outside of the standard "sociology says X" or "cultural anthropology says Y". I see you still aren't applying your discipline very well to other areas, and your posts have still got that militant smell about them.

Forgive me for prying, but your vitriol is so overcharged that I can't help but wonder if you've had some especially bad experiences with religious people in your life. If you have, I feel for you. Seriously

Peter the Believer, Trav, Boxgum,

Do you approve of Sellick referring to all nonChristians as the "living dead"?

"Those who choose other masters than Christ are deemed, in the Bible, to be the living dead."

Are you so arrogant as to support Sellick when he commands nonChristians to:

"join the community whose being is found in Christ and raise your children in that community."

How would you feel if the Dalai Lama made the same claims about you? Would you not be offended?

Or Keysar Trad?

Or anyone tell you that because of your beliefs you are damned?

Is there not one among you who is prepared to accept that humans come in all shapes, sizes, colours, genders and beliefs?

Peter Sellick

Who are you to dictate to anyone? Who are you to judge? Who are you?

Oh, boxgum...

>>Oh Pericles, what a pompous person you seem to be...<<

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gi'e us
To see oursels as others see us" R. Burns

>>The thoughts propounded in the Post Secular age movement place real pressure on the likes of Pericles to grow up and be real citizens.<<

I challenge you, boxgum, to find a sentence in my post that out-pompouses that one of your'n.

What, pray tell, is the "Post Secular age movement", when it's at home? And why do only Post and Secular deserve capitals?

In what form, o wise one, does it "place real pressure" on my goodself? What, in your view, constitutes a "real citizen" anyway?

Just bluster. Pompous bluster, at that.

Oh, and a touch of classic Christian arrogance to go with it.

>>...trivialising... a long tradition and faith containing a founding story of every freedom we have to live and enjoy<<

Freedom is not the sole prerogative of Christians, boxgum. In fact, I would characterize Christianity as a form of mental slavery.

Nor, I need to assure you, is happiness.

>>....a joy in peace that itself emanated from the fundamental Hebrew story of God's love that finds its fullest expression in Jesus Christ<<

This is your personal view, and as such I have no quarrel with it. If you feel the need to believe that joy can only be found in this manner, that is a matter for you alone.

However, to imagine that non-believers have no "joy" is a particularly nauseating conceit.

>>Now you cannot write off the above as religiosity<<

I can. It is.

>>Sell's work would find its fullest benefit if read and considered by his fellow people of faith<<

Now that is a statement with which I fully concur.