Again, mil-observer, I believe that you have posted too quickly, without taking thoughtful time to edit your post, so I have taken that liberty, and here it is:

with the west's demographic decrepitude, monetarist market implosions, and the developing world's increasing realization of potential.

Two currents of particularly irrational and toxic "argument" pollute and retard this thread:

1) Growthist overpopulation deniers fail to examine historical evidence, where civilizations have crashed time and time again for the very reasons a growing chorus of reasoned and informed voices say we are on the verge of collapse ourselves.

2) In supporting their above-identified denial of history itself, growthist overpopulation deniers ignore or deny the crucial factor of "human agency". That's no surprise really given the barely suppressed self-loathing and guilt apparent as growthist's deep personal baggage, and their yet greater hatred for the majority of humanity and for the future our our children - a hatred given more zeal and urgency out of the fear that numbers will inevitably reveal the mediocrity and unjustified privileges of their pampered few.

But in other senses there, growthist overpopulation deniers try to depoliticize all issues of economics, agriculture, infrastructure, and social and political organization; for them the growthist doctrine of "infinite resources" is the source of all ultimate meaning, and it is absolute. The growthist overpopulation deniers' case is a circular one with bets each way. On the one hand, they claim human population is some unnatural entity with no limits. On the other hand, wherever famine, market crash, epi-/pandemic or even war depletes a population, they put on their rose-colored glasses and say: “Okay, let's do it all over again” If readers are unsure on this, check historian Ronald Wright's pointed analysis.

Bereft of both historical perspective and imagination, the only “finite resource” here is that within growthist's own heads.

Too afraid to acknowledge the truth, their argument has never scaled any heights, and they have absolutely no backup plan for when their growthist pyramid scheme collapses.

Bugsy, I had to resort to rhetorical questions, since the anti-growth brigade consistently refuses to answer direct ones.

>>Come on Pericles, this is getting a bot rhetorical even or you.<<

To illustrate this, I'll now put it as bluntly as I can:

1. What, in the opinion of the anti-growthists, is the optimum population of i) Australia and ii) the world.

2. Given the above, how does the team intend to reach and/or stabilize the population at those levels

3. As a corollary to 2), what do they foresee as the economic impact of these actions on i) Australian pensioners and ii) Ghanaian subsistence farmers.

Stand back.

Waffle follows, in billows and waves.

Actually Pericles, you and I both know that you won't get a consistent answer from asking specific questions with open ended answers to a general crowd of inidviduals with varying degrees of interest.

Therefore, if you think the only way to get a consistent answer is to ask them of yourself, maybe you should ask yourself the same questions.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you think the optimum population should be?
How would this happen?
Do you think it will stabilise by itself in sort of self-limiting equilibribrium?

These are not rhetorical, I am very interested in the answer.

And further, Pericles, you have left unanswered the questions about plan "B."

What is the backup plan for energy, and where are the existing energy sources which have the density, portability, and flexibility of fossil fuels, and oil in particular?

How will we produce and transport sufficient food to, supply energy to, maintain the infrastructure of, and keep the same level of economic activity required to support our current population, let alone an increased population in the event that any of the peak predictions are true?

Given the arguments that our very complexity makes us even more vulnerable to catastrophe, what mechanism currently exists to lead us to an outcome that is different from past collapsed civilizations

RickS. They only have one very nebulous answer. "Technology"

David

im quite sick of you lot...who think there isnt enough room for as many as we can squeeze onto the earth...clearly your too lost in your eugenics solutions to clearly comprehend the ago old solutions talked about in the 30/50's

where we have skyscrapers of food grown hydroponicly..[intensive farming in highrises]..feedlots of beasts in skyscrapers...you lot are so fixated on the horisontal cure..of murdering people six feet under you miss the lateral cures

what happend to greening of the desert's..and the hundreds of other solutions put forward by the real-thinkers..not you single solution types..that say give me a number then cull..[kill]..down you it

there is no energy problem..[what we have is an energy cartel,..that wants to hold its monopoly till it gets its total control..[there is unlimeted free-energy,as i have posted so often[magnetic moters..google them on you tube]..provide free-energy for a hundred years on a single set of magnets..[for egsample]

then there is hydrogen..[from water]..or google at you tube salt/water that burns..but you lot have got your minds so closed off..are so set on your fixation of killing off those you deem geneticlly infiriour..you got no clue,..nor seek to find any cure,..except how to kill as many off in one go as possable in one go

as i have said to the master minds..that think to rule..[what more impressive to rule over million..,billions or trillions...to rule a great people or rule over slaves..how come..you guys/gals..sissies are so frightend...so closed minded...

so fixated on your delusions..you only see mass-muder as the cure..so you worthless eaters..alone..can hope to survive..[stop reading the spin from the merchants of fear..start seeing the visions from those not afraid of seeing the light

[why do you lot..love to dwell in the dark ignorance?]..dare to let go your fears..live and let live..search for solutions not ever more problems