Runner states："To create your evolutionary story around this fossil is as dumb as the many other attempts to ease man's corrupt conscience."

I'll take that, but with a minor correction:

To create your evolutionary story around this fossil.. AND the formation of landmasses that have shifted due to tectonic plate movement over millions of years AND the sheer number of prehistoric primate specimens that match primate and human characteristics such as Australopethicus not to mention thousands others AND the sheer number of dinosaur fossils that have showed up in fossil records despite no mention in the bible, yet the bible mentioned horses (you'd think a bloody tyrannosaur would mention a rating, but no AND the existence of shellfish fossils in high-altitude areas suggesting massive changes in climate and geology AND the fact that many religions claim the sole truth with no backing, just as you do AND....

Look, runner, I can go on forever, but you're not really listening are you?

Never mind. It's not as if you provide any kind of reasoning for your random diatribes anyway. Actually, I'm impressed.
That kind of fundamentalist determination takes a pretty impressive willpower.
It's a shame that that same fundamentalist determination results in the denial of reality and the production of suicide bombers, people who murder doctors who provide abortions to desperate women and the oppression of women in the name of religion... but I guess there's a kind of pure honesty in it.

Stephen has recognised the importance of the issue of how we define ourselves as humans. “Defining a human as an animal, albeit capable of abstract thought and capable of using complex tools, is, somehow, inadequate.”

There is indeed a problem with the current empty mechanistic outlook taken by many, as the following quote highlights -

Naturalism (the philosophy that underpins evolution, namely that matter and energy are all there is) cannot provide ethics; it simply is not capable of providing meaning. This problem runs deep, undercutting even the basis of rationality itself. In the atheist’s naturalistic worldview, thoughts and reasoning are just the results of chemical reactions in the brain. ‘A debate and a couple of soda bottles in the front of a room fizzing are just different types of chemical reactions. The atheist cannot put forward, within his own framework, a justification for why reasoning is trustworthy, or even worthwhile. Of course, as a Christian, I believe we can reason as human beings created in the image of God. But the atheist can’t account for reason if there is no God. On naturalistic principles, there’s no explanation for why a debate is more important than the two soda bottles fizzing. So you could say that, by showing up for the debate, the atheist has already conceded.’
- Lael Weinberger quoting Douglas Wilson.

TRTL,
You say dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible. Have you not read the book of Job? You also speak of the evidence which shows massive changes in the earth’s climate and geology. Have you not read about the massive climactic and geological upheavals spoken of in Genesis chapters 5-9?

Are you prepared to look into these things before assuming that all the evidence is pointing your way?

And as for those who say they don’t like some pushing their beliefs on others, why do they bother clicking on a web site like this? That’s all anyone ever does here.

Oliver,

As a scientist, you do have a remarkable grip on scripture and you are right to pull Runner up on moral judgements.

But to just extrapolate your: “According to the Bible, the only unforgivable sin is against the Holy Spirit. In order to sin against the Holy Spirit, one needs to first believe in God.”.

You seem to have missed the punchline.

That, therefore, the only unforgiveable sin is….UNBELIEF (worse yet, to believe and then reject).

OK, moving on…

"…if Man is wrong to create life or the early universe….How is God justified…."

The reasoning doesn’t really abrogate men from the folly of trying to be God (not mere imitation, but self-determination). So I guess we really need to go back to the question of: Is this sin?

Honestly, I don’t believe these are salvation issues (for believers), unless it leads to unbelief. Most Christians would tend to err on the side of caution, believing the path to be slippery and filled with traps and snares.

Without presuming to judge God’s innocence or guilt on his act of creation, my understanding is that pre- The Fall, there was no cruelty or sin in the earthly or heavenly realms. And Satan’s existence is due to God’s provision of free choice which consequently led to the entry of sin into the world.

However, Jesus was present at the beginning and God has allowed the world to exist as it is to glorify his Son, knowing that his creation, without a purely divine nature, was flawed with the gift of free choice.

We were created for belief, however sin leads to the rejection of God and his Son (unbelief). The only doorway into God’s world is through Jesus Christ.

Would said Creator still be a moral entity if He created us without free will?

As (unarguably!) morally-superior creatures who have inherited some aspects of the “higher morality”, we would have done it differently I suppose.

turleft/right quote<<the sheer number of dinosaur fossils that have showed up in fossil records despite no mention in the bible,>>>mate reveal where these reveal an adam..fossil...get it mate.till adam[or rather his decendants writing it..it wasnt able to be recorded..[ie a human to witness..till then..it simply cant be written down

<<AND the existence of shellfish fossils in high-altitude areas suggesting massive changes in climate and geology>>>..yes it does..[but then the real facts never get revealed

[see we have an expanding earth..[your not science enough to know the theory,..but in the non science movement it is well known the plate theory is wrong

i dont know why the truth isnt revealed..[and cant be bothered filling your little minds with the real fact's..oh what the heck i will google it for you
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=expanding+earth+neal+adams&aq=1&oq=expanding+earth

but anyhow thats the truth

[bet you dont even check it out]..but the proof is clear..[the plate theory is wrong..clearly a lie..[but so too is evolution..[but some people keep prattling on about the lies..taught to us as children..why..didnt santa and the easter bunny lies wake you up?

mate these plates are 50 k thick..[get it..[subduction means we should have mountains 100 k high..[we dont]

but our minds are lied to as a matter of policy..[fill the peons with delusions..[by men in white coats for believability..[science is a faulse god replacement

<<AND the fact that many religions claim the sole truth with no backing>...mate religions take their lead from those we would lead and decieve..[if you dont read the texts your self..[just like if you dont research the science...lol..[the system uses both to mind fuc us into ingnorant serfdom..for reasonsas i have previously posted..power over us

<<,just as you do AND....>>..and just as you do..[mindlessly pratteling others lies..do the research my brother...teach a man to reason and he soon learns to think...good luck bro

katie0<<How is God justified….">>simply as THE giver of life[ALL living/all loving/logus/logic]

<<The reasoning doesn’t really abrogate men from the folly of trying to be God..Is this sin?>>we in his image are co-creators[not judges/not destoyers]to hear his voice is to reveal[as jesus did]gods infinite good/grace/mercy;love

<<I don’t believe these are salvation issues>>god gives ALL life their lives[EVEN the most vile of the living...if that dont prove GOD dopnt judge nothing can

<<(for believers)err on the side of caution,..believing the path to be slippery and filled with traps and snares.>>it is..IF..we deney god is love/logic/light sustaining life/

<<my understanding is that pre-The Fall,..there was no cruelty or sin in the earthly or heavenly realms.>>yes but with freewill it becomes a concious choice[god dont want slaves but seeks equals[as much as cretion can equal creator...lol

<<And Satan’s existence is due to God’s provision of free choice which consequently led to the entry of sin into the world.>>what is faith withoiut works[or good without conciously seking to do good?

<<..God has allowed the world to exist..knowing that his creation, without a purely divine nature,was flawed with the gift of free choice.>>>gods knowing isnt as revealing as man learning it[via knowing all gopod comes from god[good]

<<We were created for belief,>>no we were creasted to question[test freewill..then trust gods higher wisdom of its worth/values

<<however sin leads to the rejection of God..(unbelief).>>some see sin and seek to do good

<<The only doorway into God’s world is through Jesus Christ.>>the first step is to know god VIA that we saw jesus do

<<Would said Creator still be a moral entity if He created us without free will?..>>egsactly

<<As(unarguably!)..morally-superior creatures who have inherited some aspects of the..“higher morality”,..we would have done it differently I suppose.>>you cannot legislate goodness..[it must be a free-CHOICE]

I know of the behemoth mentioned in there, Dan.

But if dinosaurs were living alongside people, the entire narrative of history would be so incredibly different.

There'd be tales of Tyrannosaurs wandering into towns and devouring things. Why use horses when allegedly, there's all manner of huge reptiles roaming around?

EVERYTHING in the bible would be fundamentally different, not just a few passages which can be construed as talking about a some great beast.

What's more, other historical documents would also rate a mention of the fundamentally different world that existed.

The only logical explanation is that a literalist 5,000 year old interpretation of the world is just plain silly.