Stormbay,

Somehow you missed the point.

Firstly, my post wasn't about the best way to run a business. I agree that from a businesses point of view being able to give one warning then fire someone would be great.

But as it happens, our society doesn't exist to just to make life easy for a business owner. It is a society for all of us - and most of us don't run businesses. This is the reality you, the small business owner, has to work within. That reality means you can't just summarily fire someone because you feel like it. Yes, being able to do that would make your life easier, but living with the risk of being summarily fired for no predictable reason makes life much harder for the people who work for you - and they outnumber you by a large margin.

As a consequence if your employees feel they have been treated badly by you, rightly or wrongly, they can sue you. If they do, win or loose, it is going to cost you a lot of money.

The question for you becomes what is the cheapest way to live within this reality. I'll give you a tip: giving 3 warnings in writing and keeping the audit trail not a bad way of doing it.

By the by, this talk about the law causing businesses to hire or not hire is just hot air. How much business you get depends mostly on how well you compete against people who offer the same services and goods you do. They are all effected equally by this law. Well not all. Actually to the extent the law imposes any impost, it distorts the market in favour of small businesses - the very people who seem to be complaining here.

Thanks Fractelle, work place bullying is normally found within large businesses and organisations, in particular the bureaucracy. Bullies in small business get sacked, or their business goes broke. We'd have more success by changing our education system so it represents real life, rather than semi illusionary economic ones.

Leadership comes from developing our understanding of those we lead, most of us have innate ability to discern a personality. Supposed born leaders in the main, are bullies and psychopaths of varying degrees. Leaders attain leadership from respect, trust and acceptance. Without those, no law will help you succeed.

Rstuart, with respect, you don't seem to have a clue about small business or how it operates. Life's never easy for small business owner, it's a 12-20 hour a day job.

Cartels and monopolist business, rely upon predatory political and economic strangulation of opposition, small business relies upon good will, the employees it has and not market control.

People sue if they have a chance of winning, otherwise it costs them a lot of money. Written agreements based on understandable common-sense, fitting with community and award standards, rather than complicated legalese or politically correct babble, then you can't lose.

Employees always make mistakes, when they repeat the same mistake, effecting the business, the owner should have the right to get rid of them. The past, “work choices” and the current garbage, requires the owner to take responsibility for the actions of the employee, rather than the employee taking responsibility for their actions in their employment.

A successful, small business, is a family, conglomerates or bureaucracy are just a job. More paper work consumes time, putting more strain on the owner

If small business has to hire on terms which don't suit the business, which removes the responsibility of the employee and puts it on the business. There is no way I would hire anyone on those terms. If we need staff, we hire people who want to work with us, not those who just want a pay packet.

stormbay: "Rstuart, with respect, you don't seem to have a clue about small business"

That is probably partially correct, as in I don't have a clue how you run a small business. Although I did spend some 24 days working in my businesses, it was always was with the goal of getting out of there. After driving the local competition out of business and them taking other on my terms, I then expanded into other cities. This was possibly because I always had a day job, and thus wasn't physically present most of the time. The employees ran the show - each location had its own manager. Doing it that way turned out to have its advantages - it meant the business could scale the way it did. It also meant I dealt with the employees on a day to day basis in writing.

Now that I look back on it, there was only two ways an employee and I parted ways. One was instant dismissal, usually involving the police. The other way was by mutual agreement. The exact day of departure in that case was at the employees choosing. Occasionally this was inconvenient, but most of the time the employee went out of their way to accommodate me.

So yes, stormbay, I'd agree that if I tried to run a business the same way you or apparently Barry Cohen do I'd be a dismal failure. I am just not hands on the way you and Barry seem to be. However, you two are under the misapprehension there is only one way to run a small business. There are other ways, and in some of them the proprietors don't feel they need the ability to fire their employees on a whim.

The thing that gets me about your protestations of the unfair dismissal laws is the laws are just forcing you to put in place the procedures you need to have if you want to grow beyond a one manager firm. Surely growing bigger is an ambition of most small business owners?

Restuart, you say it is unfair for a business owner to be able to just fire someone as they the employee deserve some certainty in life.

Well, what about some security or certaintly for the employer.

After 4 years we have to give 4 weeks notice. They give only 1 week.

We need to pay severance pay, they have to pay nothing.

We make plans, take on additional work knowing that we have the workforce, they can quit at any time it suits.

Please, we must have a level playing field if you want the respect you are seeking.

Surely growing bigger is an ambition of most small business owners?

Well it may well have been. But I can assure you, if what we went through in the early 90's is any indicator, then this will be but just a dream for many.

Don't beleive it! Watch this space!

You have all been pre-warned by people who know FROM EXPERIENCE!

rstuart,

My wife was for a small time involved in setting up and representing small businesses in IR matters.

One issue with the fair "commissions" is that a disgruntled employee can haul you in front of the commission at no expense to himself. The cost in time and money to attend these sessions and to bring representation is prohibative and entirely non refundable, and the employees know it and are often just looking for a quick settlement.

The process assumes the employer is guilty and has to prove his innocence, which can lead to ruinous costs for a small business.

If the employee were liable for the costs in the event of a negative finding (as per the normal court system), you would see far fewer chancers.