Stickman (back on page 5 of this blog) asks "who says Western civilisation is in decline? ... When .. would be a better time to have been alive in a Western civilisation? … with access to such wonders as the internet, modern medicine, and a relatively good justice system etc."

I found this amazing. Are not the following signs of decline?

*Loss of civility, indiscipline in schools, indiscriminate violence and even judicial tolerance of it (swimmer Nick Darcy )
*Soccer hooligans in UK and across Europe
*Widespread alienation - Punk and Goth
*Rejection of the beautiful, fascination with the vile - Death metal
*Nihilistic, vulgar, mindless slogans on t-shirts
*Pervasive negativity - desire to pull down, carp, be destructive
*Atomistic individualism - destruction of community and family relationships
*Binge drinking, throwing up in the street
*Ladette culture
*Drugs - epidemic of methamphetamine, speed, cocaine, heroin, marijuana
*Loss of self-respect and self-esteem: bare midriffs, tattoos (living graffiti walls), multiple piercings
*Feral behaviour on public transport and in Malls
*Loss of public safety in the streets; home invasions, gatecrashing
*Mindless and irresponsible hedonism (Corey Worthington the party animal)
*Road rage, loss of personal restraint, callousness, loss of empathy
*TV and movies saturated with violence, depravity, decadence
*Desensitization to violence - confusion of the virtual with actual reality
*People no longer interacting face to face with others - earphones in ears, constant texting, virtual friendships - all superficial, not compatible with real relationships
*Postmodernist quicksand - denial of any absolutes, vacuum of values
*Political correctness rather than positively held and affirmed values
*Decline in belief in pursuit of excellence
*Denial of personal responsibility for one's own life choices; instead preparedness to blame social conditions and anyone except oneself
*Self-obsession and intellectual narcissism of New Age pursuits
*Epidemic of suicide and depressive illnesses.

Following Jesus gives a positive, wholesome foundation to your life that is firmly based; not subjective quicksand. "I came that they might have life, and have it to the full."

Grim

<<Sells and Peter the B. have their own interpretations, and both believe -apparently without question- that their interpretation is the absolutely right one; as of course, do the Howard's and the Bush's of this world.
They know they're right, because God said so.>>

Spot on. This has been the central theme of all my articles to OLO. 'Do not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.' Do not get into right and wrong.

Glorfindel

Since the beginning of history every generation has blamed these things on the next generation. Our fathers said it about us, we say it about our children. And so on.

Glorfindel wrote: “Stickman (back on page 5 of this blog) asks "who says Western civilisation is in decline? ... When .. would be a better time to have been alive in a Western civilisation? … with access to such wonders as the internet, modern medicine, and a relatively good justice system etc."

I found this amazing. Are not the following signs of decline?”

*Loss of civility, indiscipline in schools, indiscriminate violence and even judicial tolerance of it (swimmer Nick Darcy )

Dear Glorfindel,

The above and many of the things you mentioned are only signs of decline if one ignores the reality of the past.

It is only in recent history that there has been general public education. Our schools must take in everybody. That is one way things are much better.

Violence in the schools is not new both from teachers and students. In the past the teacher was free to employ violence in the use of cane, strap and paddle. Most schools no longer allow corporal punishment. In many schools bullying was institutionalized, and lower classmen were expected to act as servants and cater to the wishes of upper classmen. “Tom Brown’s Schooldays” and other works of the period describe in detail the brutality in schools.

In the class system of a past age violence by upper class hoodlums could be excused as an exercise of high spirits. A rich Darcy would probably not have to face any sort of charges.

The above as many of the other items you mention are only signs of decline if one imagines a past Golden Age.

It is only in recent history that police forces have existed to protect citizens from random violence.

From http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/England-History/SirRobertPeel.htm:
The Peelers were the Metropolitan Police Force, which Sir Robert founded when he was Home Secretary in Lord Liverpool’s Tory Cabinet. Today it is hard to believe that Britain in the early 1800’s did not have a professional Police Force and that one had to be created.

Glorfindel wrote: “Following Jesus gives a positive, wholesome foundation to your life that is firmly based; not subjective quicksand. "I came that they might have life, and have it to the full."”

There is absolutely no evidence that Christians have a more positive, wholesome foundation to life than non-Christians.

The period of history before the formation of the secular state saw a Europe dominated by countries which had a firm union of church and state, and Christianity held the power. That period was known with good reason as “The Dark Ages”. Christians have exercised violence such as the Crusades with its massacres not only in the East but also in Europe of Jews, orthodox Christians and other non-Catholic Christians, Albigensians, pagan Lithuanians, etc., the horrible wars of the Reformation, the Inquisition and the Holocaust carried out largely by Christians.

There is a great deal of evidence that the followers of Jesus can be brutal, intolerant and murderous, and Christianity has often encouraged them in that exercise of power.

I generally like to avoid point-by-point rebuttals, but Glorfindel has provided so many statements to rebut that it's the most efficient way.

<< *Loss of civility, indiscipline in schools, indiscriminate violence and even judicial tolerance of it (swimmer Nick Darcy )
*Soccer hooligans in UK and across Europe
*Pervasive negativity - desire to pull down, carp, be destructive
*Atomistic individualism - destruction of community and family relationships
*Binge drinking, throwing up in the street
*Loss of public safety in the streets; home invasions, gatecrashing
*Mindless and irresponsible hedonism (Corey Worthington the party animal)
*Road rage, loss of personal restraint, callousness, loss of empathy
*Feral behaviour on public transport and in Malls
*Desensitization to violence - confusion of the virtual with actual reality
*People no longer interacting face to face with others - earphones in ears, constant texting, virtual friendships - all superficial, not compatible with real relationships >>

This is just the garden-variety fear of change that's been piqueing Christian paranoia for centuries. At any point in history you'll find them complaining that society is disintegrating before our eyes because of our godless ways, and yet Western civilisation has continued to grant greater freedom, prosperity and safety to each new generation.

<< *Widespread alienation - Punk and Goth
*Rejection of the beautiful, fascination with the vile - Death metal
*Nihilistic, vulgar, mindless slogans on t-shirts
*Ladette culture
*Loss of self-respect and self-esteem: bare midriffs, tattoos (living graffiti walls), multiple piercings >>

This selection makes me cringe with embarrassment for poor Glorfindel. It should have begun with the statement "I've never actually met any of these sorts of people, but in my judgement..."

If Glorfindel actually spoke to a punk, goth, Death metalhead or bare-midriffed, multi-pierced "living grafitti wall", he'd be disappointed at how ordinary, cheerful and non-nihilistic they are.

...

<< *Drugs - epidemic of methamphetamine, speed, cocaine, heroin, marijuana
*TV and movies saturated with violence, depravity, decadence
*Postmodernist quicksand - denial of any absolutes, vacuum of values
*Political correctness rather than positively held and affirmed values
*Decline in belief in pursuit of excellence
*Denial of personal responsibility for one's own life choices; instead preparedness to blame social conditions and anyone except oneself >>

By this point it's easy to tell that Glorfindel's view of the modern world comes entirely from the mass media. If he read a bit more widely - or better, some actual research - he'd find that none of these statements are accurate or representative of our current society.

<< *Self-obsession and intellectual narcissism of New Age pursuits >>

Ironic, considering that this is in response to an article which is 100% Christian intellectual narcissism.

<< *Epidemic of suicide and depressive illnesses >>

Nope. Just increased rates of diagnosis and media coverage.