Hi Spikey,

The majority of Indigenous tertiary students do not come straight from secondary school, and in fact, I suspect that the majority still do not have Year 12 - they have often completed tertiary preparation through TAFE, or come in as mature students. This pattern is changing rapidly and a sort of tipping point may have been reached in about 2004-2005.

Are you suggesting that there is something dodgy about DEST's commencement figures ? I workes for many years in Indigenous tertiary student support, and my wife worked for 23 years as manager of support programs and, if anything, what we always found was that enrolments were higher at our respective campuses than the university records showed and therefore that DEST recorded, by a factor of around 15-20 %. Often the more 'political' students refused to tick the box 'Indigenous etc.' out of suspicion of what the universities might do with the information. So if anything, the official numbers under-count.

So I am confident that the DEST figures are conservative when they record about 1.4 % of commencements, and 1.2 % of enrolments and graduations as Indigenous, when the Indigenous ADULT population makes up about 1.8 % of Australian adults.

Indigenous women's commencement rate by the way is better than non-Indigenous men's. Sorry, Spikey, that's how it is. Amazing, isn't it ?

You are right that Indigenous students are under-represented in the high-prestige courses like law (not as much as people think) and medicine, engineering and the sciences generally as well. But isn't that what you would expect from low SES groups, the working class generally ? (Sorry to use such a political term).

And yes, you are right - the participation rates are far higher in the more urbanised states, where Indigenous people are far more likely to have English as a first language, are literate, have work experience in their families, and are inter-marrying. And who have lost their land more or less forever.

Joe

There's something I don't understand: presumably On Line Opinion is open to all twenty million Australians, or at least the fifteen million Australians who are old enough to participate in a meaningful way. Yet nobody, not one person in fifteen million seems to see anything positive about Indigenous people, the vast majority of whom are either working-class or welfare-class, punching so far above their weight, doing so much better than the white working class: 75 % of the participation rate of the Australian middle class compared to barely 33 %. Our good friend Spikey makes reasonable queries, I try to respond to them, and nobody, not one other Australian out of fifteen million, seems to give a stuff either way.

Are we all so racist - not in a nasty KKK way, but in the sense of low expectations - that we can't even believe that Indigenous people can succeed in tertiary study ? Well, folks, they can and they are. And they will keep doing it.

And so much for cultural differences, by the way.

Joe Lane

Joe,

Your practical experience - and your wife's - showed that "enrolments were higher at our respective campuses than the university records showed and therefore that DEST recorded, by a factor of around 15-20 %". You explained this by students refusing to tick the box 'Indigenous etc.' out of suspicion of what the universities might do with the information. So if anything, you say, the official numbers under-count.

Yet you happily put the DEST university figures of 1.4 % of commencements, and 1.2 % of enrolments against the Indigenous adult population which makes up about 1.8 % of Australian adults. Surely your claim about under-estimating tertiary figures would also apply to Census data? What proportion of Indigenous people fail to tick the box on Census night (for whatever reasons)?

Don't apologise to me about Indigenous women's commencement rate being better than non-Indigenous men's. It's not amazing at all. The same applies to non-Indigenous students too (though men still dominate in some faculties).

I don't challenge your data as a put-down of Indigenous people. Just the reverse. If we're going to mount good arguments about the need for more resources and better opportunities for Indigenous Australians (as I have for years) it's crucial that we get the facts absolutley right.

While I'm not surprised to find low SES groups (Indigenous or not) bunched in the low status courses (and you accurately give some of the reasons in rural areas) I don't EXPECT that as cast in stone. People have a habit of living down to low expectations. We can learn something from the dramatic increase in the past 20 years in the proportion of women entering law courses (up from low 20% to over 55% now).

I agree with you that low expectations - including the belief that Indigenous people can't succeed in tertiary study - are a major impediment. I personally know and work with outstanding Indigenous scholars. The improving overall statistics are promising but there's still much room for improvement.

Thank you Spikey,

Concerning your comment about a possible under-count in the Census data: you may be right but it is also likely that Indigenous people are more likely to identify on the Census in what they may consider to be a condition of anonymity. And of course, if there is an under-count of Indigenous people in the Census, then there is an under-count of Indigenous graduates in the Census: one follows from the other.

Better resources ? It really depends what is done with those that are already available. In the case of Indigenous students' support at universities, there seems to be a rort going on at the moment whereby universities are diverting support funds towards the teaching of Indigenous Studies to non-Indigenous students. I'm not opposed to that, but I certainly am opposed to the misuse of support funds allocated academic and other support for Indigenous tertiary students.

I fully agree that there is a long way to go, but surely we should concede that Indigenous people have already climbed - talk about blood, sweat and tears ! - quite a way up the ladder. The inference is surely that if many Indigenous people can do it, then so can others. Perhaps TAFE has a role here - instead of the multitude of Mickey Mouse courses and piddly modules that are foisted on Indigenous people in the name of 'Indigenous Education' (though they certainly help to pad the numbers, 50,000 indeed !), Indigenous students (and students from other low SES groups, of course) could be prepared for entry into both trades and tertiary study much more effectively through a re-energised TAFE sector.

And I would respectfully dispute with you that what Indigenous women have achieved, in terms of parity with non-Indigenous male students, is indeed amazing - certainly far better than (I'm sure) most readers would have thought. Certainly better than either male or female non-Indigenous low-SES performance.

Joe

Joe,

You say: "... if there is an under-count of Indigenous people in the Census, then there is an under-count of Indigenous graduates in the Census: one follows from the other."

That can only be a guess on your part. My intuition runs the other way: Indigenous graduates are more likely to be proud and assertive of their achievements. Many of the Indigenous graduates I know are keen to put themselves out there to say to others, this can be done. As you say: " The inference is surely that if many Indigenous people can do it, then so can others." So I can't see them ticking the wrong boxes on the Census.

Better resources ? I'd like to see all of your suggestions and more. I think there's a need for
1. quality support for Indigenous students at universities
2. the teaching of Indigenous Studies to non-Indigenous students
3. improved enrolment rates for Indigenous students in law, medicine, engineering and course design and delivery being top-notch
4. a re-energised TAFE sector - but not falling for the old trick of diverting Indigenous and other low SES students into the low status TAFE sector while the privileged high SES students get to enrol in the prestigious courses in higher education - educational apartheid!

And I respectfully disagree with you that "what Indigenous women have achieved, in terms of parity with non-Indigenous male students, is indeed amazing - certainly far better than (I'm sure) most readers would have thought".

I think its a matter of combining aspiration, talent, hard work and winning access to opportunity. I'm heartened, but not amazed (what was that about expectations again?)

Not only is there a wide gulf between educational standards between selective high schools full fee private schools and high schools in working class suburbs there is also a great variation between employment outcomes for graduates from the different universities. In Victoria graduates from the lower standard universities find it harder to get employment and earn less than their counterparts from Melbourne, Monash & RMIT.
Increasing the number of university students is more about lowering unemployment statistics than it is about improving the employment prospects of students. Most Melbourne Uni graduates will find their degree opens the door to better employment choices and higher incomes, but graduates from La Trobe Bendigo or Wodonga, Uni Ballarat, Monash Gippsland, will find they have a large HECS debt and limited prospects of work in their chosen profession. This situation wil be repeated in other states.
A decade ago a study of graduate outcomes showed that people from lower SES groups studied the lower remunerated and older technology disciplines. The researcher speculated that this was from poorer knowledge of the labour markets.