This article merely presents us with more “findings”.

Self-determination is a crock. Black Australians living outside the mainstream simply cannot exist without the huge amounts of money that have been wasted on them in the past, and are still being wasted on them.

Immigrants from cultures different from the mainstream have continued to maintain their cultures, without cost to the economy, while still participating in mainstream work, housing and the laws of the land.

It’s time all the rhetoric about “findings”, special needs and other nonsense was stopped. Black Australians should be required to get off their backsides and do something for themselves. They can live as they wish, but they must stop expecting the rest of us to pay for it; and our useless politicians must stop doing the paying.

The problem can also be seen as the integration of Western society into indigenous culture.

In the language of the previous comment, non-indigenous Australians should be required to get off their backsides and do something for themselves by way of achieving equity between women and men, with a Republic with provision for women's legislatures alongside men's legislatures to reconcile indigenous with non-indigenous decision-making.

This reference describes the nature of the technocratic "culture" that now dominates the world.

And how it has inevitably destroyed (or would destroy) ALL other ways of being in the world.

http://www.aboutadidam.org/readings/bridge_to_god/index2.html

Assimilate or die!

One thing on which all parties are agreed is that trying to solve indigenous problems by policy has been ‘a dismal failure’. Yet the author then goes right ahead with the same old assumption underlying the chronic problems, which is that more officious meddling must be the solution. The question is whether the particular form of intervention should be this, or that. It doesn’t seem to occur to him to leave people alone, stop trying to force others to sacrifice their values to his, and that the indigenous people of this country would have been, and would be better off in the absence of race-based laws and policies. This would enable those who desire self-determination to pursue it, and those who desire integration to pursue it, without someone else’s opinions being imposed on either, with those sympathetic to either option to support it without being hindered by government, and without people who don’t agree being forced to fund these dopey and destructive policies.

People should have rights because they are human beings, not because they belong two a particular racial group. Race-based laws are bad in principle and bad in practice. They assume either that Aboriginal people are too pathetic to have the liberty and responsibility of ordinary human beings, or that they are nature's aristocrats, entitled to special privileges at others' expense.

Australia's race-based laws and policies should be abolished.

"Maximising wellbeing, after all, should be what policy is about."

This assumes that policy *is capable of* maximising wellbeing. The assumption is based on a fallacy. Policy as a means is not capable of achieving the end of maximising wellbeing. That's not what it is, and it's not what it's for.

Political power derives from a claim of a monopoly of the legal use of force. It's about power. It's about A taking from B and giving to A, or to A's political favourites.

In transactions based on force or threats, including taxation, the stronger party takes from

Policy only *appears* to be capable of maximising wellbeing if you ignore the costs. But obviously if you ignore the costs, anything will appear beneficial, not matter how vain, destructive or anti-social it is. For anyone to receive without working, someone else must work without receiving. That's the part that's missing from your analysis. You haven't considered the ethics, and the value, and what benefits might have been with the wealth that is confiscated to pay for your schemes.

What you are suggesting is fundamentally unethical, and that is the root cause why these racist schemes have failed so badly in practice.

At last. A subject worth making a deeply thoughtout comment on.

Culture & Australia. Assimilation v Self-determination.

Over many years (I'm 63 & from Nth. Qld originally) of shifting loyalties & listing to the media & indigeonous hype. I have come to a conclusion. Most Social professors at any University are airheads (or intentionaly blonde.) Aboriginal activists look after their own interests only. The general population that get involved in these arguements are fanatics on one side or the other, stired up by the Media or Aboriginal Activists. None of them have any interest in solving the problem in any way, shape or form. Their only interest is to further their own careers.

The Media show pretty pictures of bush Aboriginals & we all go "Ahh..." then they show the riots in Redfern & we all go "bastards."

There-in lies the problem. Professors, Polititions, Social Do-Gooders, Aboriginal Activists & the Fanatics on all side are stiring up & manipulating the emotions of ordinary people. It's called the Opera Game. We get told when to go Aw..., Ohh..., or Ahh.. It has become expected behaviour & ordinary people fall for it every time. I was one of those people in the TV studio that held up the "Ohh/Ahh" board a long time ago.

Bush Aboriginals & Town Aboriginals. There is a difference. A big difference. The bush ones claim want all the benifits of the town but want to live following their 50000 year old customs. The town ones want to live a modern life but want claim the right to live their culture. Then they all want to be treated equal, both Town & Bush & Modern Culture. It can't be done. It must be one or the other.
Con't

Sorry. Shoulda read:

"In transactions based on force or threats, including taxation, the stronger party takes from the weaker without his consent, and value is destroyed: a win/lose.

con't. I had a lot more written but suddenly it disappeared. I didn't get time to correct the spelling. So I appoligize for that. Now where was I.

The Townie. What does he want. Just who is he. The ones we hear about usually are the well paid activists screaming that Aboriginals are down trodden. The usual cry is, "I want to live my Aboriginal Culture." The other is the Alcholic & the criminals, which is a European trait, who just wants to, as the song says, "get drunk & screw." Are Townies all like that. I don't think so. Most Townie aboriginals are just ordinary hard working people. They have assimilated. They have been to school, got a job & make their own way in the world. They determine their own future. They have achieved self determination. And good on them.

But what of the fringe dwellers. The ones who never achieved an education because they aren't interested. They are more interested playing hooky from school, in drinking, sniffing glue & breaking into houses to pay for it all. Then blame whitie for all his troubles Assimilation?, Self-determination? Yes, white people do, do the same things too. But we ARE talking about the fringe dweller aboriginal people here. They mostly have alcoholic & cimminal parents who have not assimilated. They believe they have been hard done by & this is enforced by the Aboriginal Social groups who use them to to further their own aims. These people are behind the 8 ball before they start. How can they assimilate or achieve self determination.

The American Negro was a slave then set free. Wanted to make his own way in the world but couldn't because of extreme Racism. He was deperate to assimilate but wasn't allowed. desperate to get an education, but couldnt. Now they can, and now look where they are.

when are non-indigenous peoples going to assimilate into indigenous society by achieving equity between women and men with a Constitution with provision of women's legislatures?

how long do non-indigenous women have to live under the indignity of perpetual male supervision?

indigenous women never did.

Noel Pearson has now joined the call for improved education for aboriginal kids

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25085269-601,00.html

Am sure this is the key for a better future for aboriginal people. Like any people living in remote areas, they must move to places where the education can be obtained and careers fitting that education are available. Self determination is simply wishful thinking.

Recently Mick Dobson called for improved education too, but he was saying the Government should do this and that. I ask what is wrong in calling for parental responsibility to ensure the kids get to school. Is that too much to ask?

We can’t put a top class base hospital in every town. Thats a fact. We can’t simply wish jobs into a particular area. Another fact.

If aboriginal people want parity in health, employment and education, then they will have to move to those areas where these options are available. It is simply not possible to live a traditional lifestyle in remote townships AND enjoy all the benefits of modern life. It just doesn’t work.

But something needs to be done to break the cycle. Aboriginal kids whose parents agree need the option of good boarding schools where they can learn in a safe, healthy environment. They need to be taught the same curriculum as every other Australian kid. Adults need to move to those places where work can be had. Otherwise the vicious circle of limited education, poor health, high unemployment, alcoholism and violence will be perpetuated.

Whistler say >> “when are non-indigenous peoples going to assimilate into indigenous society by achieving equity between women and men with a Constitution with provision of women's legislatures?”

WHAT? Next you’ll be telling us we need separate legislatures for aborigines, migrants, young people and old people. What UNADULTERATED BULLSH!T.

A womens legislature? The indignity of perpetual male supervision? Are you insane?

By the way, aboriginal women suffer more mistreatment than just about any other minority group in the country. I wouldn’t start romanticising their culture if I were you.

Ah whistler complements the article author with more silly promotions with the inept politics of gender division..

doomed to fail..

counters the rules of practical social order and benefits of inclusion, I am pleased to say.

Aboriginals and non-aboriginals of every ethnic origin need to understand this

Whatever they do, “assimilation” is the natural, unstoppable, way of the world.

It has been happening for centuries, millenniums even.

And regardless the evidence of the authors limited research, self-determination/separate development will fail and assimilation prevail and has already commenced / happened, if the blonde and red headed aboriginal folk are any clue.
If the aboriginals way of life is so much “superior” to the way of the whites… why is their life expectance to much lower?

If aboriginals want what whites have, they need to adapt to doing what whites do

The notion that you can gain a benefit without shouldering a responsibility is a myth, the sort of myth which the political parasites of socialism spew forth.

Assimilation will prevail, no doubt about it. Slam dunk, cannot be stopped, slowed briefly maybe but ultimately, it will prevail if not this century, in another 2 at the longest

“Self-determination” in the context of a separate homeland is fine… provided the 'self-determinants' do not expect to be subsidized by the rest of us but

Self-determination in the Australian Aboriginal context, amounts to something which is no different to Apartheid as adopted by South Africa and look where that ended up.

However, anyone in doubt, me, being an Anglo-Saxon, with a bit of Jew in the mix would remind you all

Angles and Saxons were separate ethnic groups once. Not any more… and Australia was colonized by Anglo-Saxons along with Celts and the descendents of Picts and Ancient Britains and the odd Viking.

You see, the folk who settled Australia, in the name of the British Crown, are the inheritors of the very assimilation of which I speak.

Paull of Whistler “Are you insane?”

Valid question…

Whistler… please answer or I will do so in your absence

You and others like yourself, Leigh, must never forget that traditionally our blacks as we call them, do have more claim on this country than we have.

It is the reason as with New Zealand's natives, and also lately with Canada, that the Southland's original owners should have permanent representation in our governments.

Further, maybe if we arranged more ceremonies honouring them for the above reason, maybe they would begin to respect us more and even copy us more by becoming interested in a history especially compiled for them.

Must say I tried this somehwat in my series called A Land in Need, but suffered much criticism for having more sympathy for the blacks than the whites.

From BB, WA.

"separate legislatures for aborigines, migrants, young people and old people"

not necessary PaulL, achieve equity between women and men and all else follows.

"aboriginal women suffer more mistreatment than just about any other minority group in the country"

absent provision for women's legislatures, all women, Aboriginal women included, suffer the indiginity of perpetual male supervision.

in your own words, I wouldn’t start romanticising Western culture if I were you.

Col Rouge, Western society is the consummate example of social organisation which counters the rules of practical social order and benefits of inclusion with an ongoing failure to achieve equity between women and men despite a century of overwhelming public support.

"Whatever they do, “assimilation” is the natural, unstoppable, way of the world."

" ... Assimilation will prevail, no doubt about it. Slam dunk, cannot be stopped, slowed briefly maybe but ultimately, it will prevail if not this century, in another 2 at the longest"

yes, mainstream Australia will assimilate into indigenous society with decision-making conducted by agreement between womens and men's legislatures, that's a certainty, but when?

there's no way Australian women are going to wait another two decades, let alone another two centuries, for their male colleagues to figure out what equity means.

"If the aboriginals way of life is so much “superior” to the way of the whites… why is their life expectance to much lower?"

because Australia is infested with the inequity of discriminatory decision-making.

"If aboriginals want what whites have, they need to adapt to doing what whites do."

yes, and if mainstream Australians want to achieve equity between women and men, they need to adapt to what indigenous Australians have been doing over millennia.

whistler,
You are a fruit loop. You need, O forget it, not worth wasting the effort on ding a lings

Whistler said: "if mainstream Australians want to achieve equity between women and men, they need to adapt to what indigenous Australians have been doing over millennia".

Thanks for that all-mighty big laugh. When I hear people falsely romanticise Aborignal culture in this way I am reminded of a small thing that happened to me at Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park back in 2001.

I spent some days sharing a house with park rangers which included an Anangu woman. One evening after taking pictures at Kata Tjuta earlier in the day, I was chatting with her and relating how I had finally got the picture I was after - it had been cloudy on previous afternoons.

Anyway, she told me that she had been part of the Kata Tjuta patrol for some time - this is a ranger patrol that goes out there very afternoon - until as she put it, the "old men" found out about it. She was then summarily yanked from this ranger duty. As she sheepishly told me, "Kata Tjuta is OK for white woman, not good for Anangu woman".

And guess which area of the national park is seen as being the most important to Anangu culture? It's Kata Tjuta - the area of special MALE significance.

Anybody who thinks that there was "equality" between men and women in traditional Aboriginal culture needs to go see a shrink. I mean what other fairy tales do you believe in?

Why bother even posting a comment here? This place has gone to the dogs.

The answer is simple, Assimilation.
Western culture has assimilated many others including Anglo-Saxons. The folly is to believe that this hasn't happened. Western culture is the dominate culture for a reason. Perhaps it’s the name that puts some people off. For a time it could have just as easily be called eastern culture. All new members have some impact on it some more than others. The important point is it changes it evolves, if you wish to have its benefits then you must merge with it as best you can.
To think overwise is to close your eyes to history.

Bushbred “do have more claim on this country than we have.”

No they don’t

Every Australian citizen should have equal rights and claim under the law.

Anything different to that is racism

“yes, mainstream Australia will assimilate into indigenous society with decision-making conducted by agreement between womens and men's legislatures, that's a certainty, but when?”

It has had several millennia to happen and I am not holding my breath that it will change from the joint legislature we have now.

But you can hold your breath if you like.

“yes, and if mainstream Australians want to achieve equity between women and men, they need to adapt to what indigenous Australians have been doing over millennia.”

Again is not going to happen.. because

the will of the minority will not hold domain over the will of the majority

Banjo “whistler,
You are a fruit loop. You need, O forget it, not worth wasting the effort on ding a lings”

Succinct Banjo LOL

Whilst I agree I do enjoy nibbling on fruit loops, sometimes after drowning them in a bowl of milk, other times straight from the packet

Kenny spot on.

so because senior men allegedly asked your informant not to undertake a particular activity, indigenous women's and men's business is inequitable, Savage Pencil, is this correct?

did you ask senior women to confirm your conclusion?

and did you also ask senior women whether or not what your informant allegedly told you about the area of special MALE significance was what you wanted to hear?

Col Rouge, yes, "Assimilation will prevail, no doubt about it. Slam dunk, cannot be stopped".

Kenny, yes, "The answer is simple, Assimilation."

an inferior culture will always assimilate into a dominant culture, sustainability is everything.

since the culture that lasts the longest is the most sustainable, indigenous culture is dominant in Australia by a magnitude of breathtaking proportions.

the provision of women's legislatures will complete the assimilation.

Whistler “since the culture that lasts the longest is the most sustainable, indigenous culture is dominant in Australia by a magnitude of breathtaking proportions.”

Somehow this “dominance” you speak of seems very “submissive”,

Maybe it’s a “switch”

As for the length of endurance….

The British culture is just as long, chronologically speaking, as aboriginal. The British Isles being “inhabited” by humans probably longer than Australia.

The difference simple – the British culture has evolved, partly by the influx of different ethnic groups over time… Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc etc…. which has built a strong and diverse gene pool, from which a strength of innovation and invention has allowed social development above and beyond the level of an aboriginal (primitive) “hunter gatherer”,

When we consider the ease of life in Australia and the expectation that “higher skills” only develop around a plentiful food supply, and Australia being rich in diversified food sources, one has to ask the question

Why, if it is the “dominant culture” have the aboriginal ways been stuck in a social order several thousand years behind the British?

One can only presume, since food source is not an inhibitor and nothing else to inhibit development, that “genetics”, most particularly a the lack of “diversity” may be an influence.

Somehow I feel the consequences of multiple generations of genetic inbreeding, isolation from the innovations which have spanned many other cultures and continents through the millennia’s, has not resulted in an aboriginal “culture which could, in any way ever be described as being either dominant of superior to the British culture, quite the opposite.

"the provision of women's legislatures will complete the assimilation."

but that will not happen, until after a pixie sit on the golden throne, lazarus walks again and the meek inherit the earth.

As an anthropologist, I think that Troll Rouge makes a good bean counter.

At least, according to his own assessment.

I found the author's article extremely interesting.

It confirms what the historian Henry Reynolds said
in his book, "Why weren't We Told?":

" ... Many Australians felt that they had been poorly
served by their teachers and by the nation's historians.
They are angry that they weren't told the truth about
the past and feel they were denied information,
interpretation and understanding. It is now possible
to explore the past by means of large numbers of books,
articles, films, novels, songs and paintings...
We can know a great deal about the history of indigenous-
settler relations. But knowing brings burdens which can
be shirked by those living in ignorance. With knowledge
the question is no longer what we know but what we are now
to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal with..."

The author of this article has the right idea. In order for
people to stand up on their own two feet, so to speak, they
need self-esteem, a strong self-image. That can't be achieved
in a society that doesn't fully recognise their culture,
languages and customs. Our tolerance and understanding needs
to be broadened out. Self-determination will only be achieved
through the preservation of the culture of the indigenous
people. To deny them that is to deny their worth as a people.

I agree with what was written but also find amusing what jayb wrote...anyway it is going to be really hard to solve these issues. I feel the real problem is how everything is structured, it needs to be a community approach not from the bottom down, I really hate how the government bring the same ole people in these boards and committees, it just makes me think they are tokens (they are either yes people or people that are not listened too) having indigenous representation has helped in some areas but its sad that no full commitment is there to solve the continuing issues that aboriginal people face.

> the consequences of multiple generations of genetic inbreeding

far be it from me to criticise the Queen, Col Rouge, but i'd take a close look at the genealogy of the British Royal Family before i started taking pot shots at Aborigines, if i were you.

And the winner for the most redneck comment in 2009 is....

agree, CJ, I think he would charge at least 50 dollars...

"whistler far be it from me to criticise the Queen, Col Rouge, but i'd take a close look at the genealogy of the British Royal Family before i started taking pot shots at Aborigines, if i were you."

not at all... the royals are well known for their indiscriminate fornication with ordinary folk... then appointing the bastard offspring positions within the aristocracy, Dukes and Earls etc..

which makes the genealogy a far broader, risher and more mixed brew than that displayed in the records of the "official" line.

Anyway I was talking about British folk and aboriginals in general... and my point remains valid.

Billya "no full commitment is there to solve the continuing issues that aboriginal people face."

maybe this is something the aboriginals should resolve for themselves.

In my posts I have been at pains to emphasise, expecting anything from government is a serious mistake.

The resolution to individual issues and problems will never be found in a bunch of self-serving politicians.

Better to deal with it oneself, sure you wont get the promised handouts (which raraely arrive anyway and do no good whatsoever when they do)

Find dignity and self respect in doing things for yourself and through the independence of spirit which that develops... it is a far more rewarding path (especially for those who have scaled at least the first steps of Maslows hierarchy).

ah rainer.. as irrelevant as ever

PS $50 would not buy you ten minutes at my charge rate... which is determined based on "supply and demand" whereas your "charge rate" is based on the patronage and patronisation which comes with tenure.

If you were to be paid on a "supply and demand" basis you would certainly starve.

As for CHMoron.. when did the mad dog of the village ever have anything of merit to say?... nothing in living memory..

My. Arn't we all having fun.

Maybe the way to go is have both.

Townie Aboriginals must fully assimilate & save their culture for special days. As in, for the Scotts... Burns Day. Otherwise if they want there culture then they must return to the bush.

Bush Aboriginals must be given their land back so they can live in their Traditional Culture. That means no whitie stuff at all. No 4x4s, rifles, medical, clothes or booze. No contact with Europeans under any circumstanses. The worst thing that ever happened to the Aboriginal was the Missionary.

Rainier - I stumbled across this footage of Col doing anthropological fieldwork among the Aborigines:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ymZaMJ_Pno&feature=related

It seems he hasn't learned much since...

...
WHY OPPOSE ASSIMILATION AND SELF-DETERMINATION ?
...

In determining oneself, why should assimilation not be considered a possible option ? I suspect our good friends at OLO chose that title.

The original title of the CLMR discussion paper of A.M.Dockery was "Culture and well-being; the case of indigenous Australians".

If we accredit Darwin's theory of the evolution of the species, there can be no doubt that one must adapt in order to survive. Strong or weak is not the question.

The problem we all have to face is can we adapt ?

Some of us can and some of us can't. Some of us are lacking in intellectual capacity and do not understand the changes. The train comes and goes and we are left standing on the platform. Some of us are either inhibited or, inversely, excited by psychological impulsions that, sometimes, prevent us from doing what we should, or, conversely, precipitate us into doing what we should not.

As Darwin explained, that is the natural selection process.

The aborigines lived isolated from the rest of humanity for 50 000 years in a vast, rich country full of natural resources that satisfied their every need. Apart from regular, moderate seasonal rhythms, there was no change. There was nothing for them to adapt to. Until the British government invaded their country by deporting 165 000 criminals from their homeland as forced labour during the slave trade. British white slaves.

The impact of that event was far more brutal than the ice age hitting the dinosaurs, causing extinction of the species. It is a wonder there are any aborigines left at all.

How do you bridge an evolutionary gap of 50 000 years in one foul leap ? That's a phenomenal performance.

In my view, the one's that don't make it are the normal human beings, like you and me.

I feel it's only right for someone to give us a helping hand to get by as well as we can. Like those diggers from the first world war we celebrated, year after year, until there were none of them left.

> How do you bridge an evolutionary gap of 50 000 years in one foul leap

with a Constitution comprising women's and men's legislatures presided over by elders accompanied by courts of women's and men's jrisdiction, Banjo Paterson.

factor in constitutional democracy and no-one is left behind.

indigenous Australians enjoy the miracles of material culture while mainstream Australians enjoy the peace, prosperity and sustainablily, so illusive for so long, that smart government provides.

...
@ DEAR WHISTLER,
...

Reading your post brought back fond memories of that well-known figure, the chiropractor, of bygone days, who used to roam the countryside on his horse and buggy selling his famous elixir. It could cure anything and everything: a sore throat, a strained back, a pimpled face, a pain in the belly, falling hair, constipation, migraines, lumbago, impotency ... you name it!

I must confess I feel tempted to buy it just for old times' sake. Unless you are giving it away, of course! In that case, would you mind if I took two - one for my sister as well ?

...

Banjo Paterson, you may obtain free samples when the wise custodians of the Federal Parliament host a Constitutional Conference on smart government, comprising a Women's Caucus in the Senate and a Men's Caucus in the House of Representatives.

Banjo,

Whistler is clearly beyond the irony of snake oil salesmen. Fanatics generally are.

Womens caucas. Or is it Womyns?

Does a woymns caucas mean I would not ever have to take instruction from a womyn again?

Nuttier than a fruitcake.

> Does a woymns caucas mean I would not ever have to take instruction from a womyn again?

yes, PaulL, those of your gender you elect will do the negotiations for you in a constitutional democracy.

The aboringinal languages are dying, and in a few generations will probably cease to exist.

The young seldom see the need to continue the customs of their elders, and as much of the western culture of the 1900s has changed, so will the aboringinal. This is happening to all indigenous cultures world wide.

Whistler can like king Canute comand the tide not to come in, but it will. Those that see it don't get their feet wet.

...
@ SHOWDOWN MINISTER

...

That is the tendency. Is it fatality ? Do we have no choice ? Is there nothing we can do about it ? Do we just have to wait until it happens ?

Did somebody decide that ? Who did ? Did we decide it ? Or is it simply that we just don't give a damn ?

If anybody cares, would he or she please reply to this post ...

...

>The aboringinal languages are dying, and in a few generations will probably cease to exist.

where i live in sydney, children dance at ceremony,
languages are being recovered,
and aborigines are proud of culture.