“But there is no nation so founded on a collective trauma as that of Israel.”

On the face of it, I would agree; but, like Tanveer Ahmed, I don’t really know much about modern Israel or how modern Israelis think about their ancestors’ feelings of ‘victimhood’.

But, Ahmed thinks that way about a ‘nation’, conveniently overlooking the fact that Muslims see themselves as victims no matter where they live. You don’t see Christians frothing at the mouth over what happens to people of their religion in countries far away. Modern Jews tend to see themselves as belonging to the countries they live in, too. We see too many of the older Jews who actually experienced the Holocaust and other atrocities to be able to believe that modern Jews might not think of themselves as victims.

I’m pleased that I am a non-believer so that I don’t have to answer for all the baggage that goes with religion: things which should have nothing to do with human beings and how they act or do not act.

“The remaking of Anzac Day and Gallipoli is a craving for such an identity rooted in blood, especially for younger Australians, as evidenced by the huge turnouts to dawn services in recent years.”

Rubbish! The old codgers are pressuring the naïve young into carrying on (after the old ones are gone) something that has been mistaken for patriotism and national pride; pride that we do not have, thanks to multiculturalism and a ‘everybody-welcome’ immigration policy. Celebrating a military disaster involving a European war 90 years ago cannot overcome the steady erosion of Australia as a country to be proud of; a country ruined by multiculturalism and political correctness.

The rest of the article is just more of the ‘Israel bad, Hamas terrorists good’ junk that comes up every time Israel defends itself from Arabs. Not worth reading

Thank you for your informed comments. Spot on, in my opinion. I am a psychologist (and Vietnam veteran) who suffers personally from Post traumatic Stress, and who specialises professionally in this area. Psychiatry and psychology have a role to play in helping politicians and their constituencies understand all the variables. More please.

Ahmed starts off writing that many Muslims look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict disproportionately and rarely know much about the reality of the conflict - and then proves it.

Arabs have only ever tolerated Jews in their midst when they have been the ones with the power. A Jewish minority coexisted with a Muslim Arab majority when the Ottomans ruled Palestine for hundreds of years before 1918, however under the British Mandate, when the Jewish population became large enough to threaten aspirations for Arab nationalism, Jews were no longer tolerated. This attitude culminated in the attempt to destroy the new State of Israel by surrounding Arab nations and local Arabs in 1948, their subsequent defeat, and the creation of the refugees, which no surrounding Arab country was prepared to absorb. To suggest that now Arabs and Jews should coexist peacably in a bi-national state is disingeneous as it is simply another version of what was attempted before - this time to destroy the Jewish State through the ballot box and replace it with an Arab dominated one.

The suggestion that Israel's raison d'etre is only justified when viewed through that nation's history of persecution is outdated and simplistic. While it may have carried weight when garnishing opinion and support for the establishment of the State in the years leading up to independence in 1948, the modern State of Israel is concerned with its day to day affairs, not the persecuted past of the Jewish people. The fact of the matter is that European anti-semitism has transmuted to Arab and Muslim hatred of the Jewish State, which has been the real and present threat of the last 60 years.

Israel is surrounded by a billion angry Muslims living in countries whose policy calls for its destruction. Meanwhile it is an economic success, the only democracy, has the only truly independent judiciary, and fortunately has the most powerful miltary in the region. It has a right and duty to protect its citizens from terrorists and other threats originating from across its borders.

Ahmed's assessment is correct.

But let's be clear now.

Yesterday Hamas and Israel agreed to another truce.

The basis: the Israeli blockade of Gaza is lifted and the rocket attacks cease.

Have absolutely no doubt at the end of the last truce the first provoctive action was by Israel re-enforcing the blockade ... then followed Hama's rockets ... then the disproportnate Nazi style crackdown on the Gaza ghetto, immediatel;y prior to the Israeli election.

It is entirely reasonable to subscribe to the notion the Israeli Government provoked Hamas just to show the 'enlightened liberal' Israeli electorate just how 'tough' they were.

It was a politically inspired attack.

Look at the result, the Israeli's were presented with a set of candidates who set about trying to show who was the most violent.

The Israeli Government now seems set on a course of a Unity Government with members from all parties in that Government.

What a joke that's as near to a one-party dictatorship as is possible under democracy without actually being a one party state.

Disgraceful.

I am sympathetic to the Palestinian suffering. It is much longer than the suffering of the survivors of the Jews in Europe. This has lasted 40 odd years and the Israeli's seem to want to extend and continue the punishment, land theft and general misery indefinitely.

Condalezza Rice said after the defeat of Israel in Lebanon 'Now we will see who is for peace in the middle east.'

We've just seen the Israeli people vote overwhelmingly for violence.

It's difficult for me to support Ahmed's comments since the "memory" of history is quite different to what I was taught. There often seems to be a collective and selective amnesia when this topic is raised.

My understanding of that history was that the partition of the lands West of the Jordan River took place in 1920 under British occupation? That prior to 1920 there was no such thing as a Palestinian Arab People? That the peoples West of the Jordan were majority Jewish and Christian, the concept of Palestine, then a secular way of saying Terra Sancta, was repugnant to Moslems?

Yes there were many conflicts between the Jewish and Palestinian communities from 1920 to 1948, including the Day of Atonement 1928, the Palestine Riots and the Hebron Massacre 1929, culminating in the League of Nations International Commission in 1930.

The League of Nations upheld Edmund Allenby's 1920 pledge that all sacred sites were to be maintained for all denominations. At the end of the British Mandate in 1948, Jerusalem was immediately attacked by King Abdullah of Jordan and the Arab Liberation Armies. There was NO State of Israel at that time, there was by the time of the Armistice Agreement in 1949. Jordan refused access to Jerusalem, against Article VIII for 19 years when the 1967 war saw the capture of Jerusalem by Israel

Israel is no “mercenary of the West in the heart of the Middle East” but an outpost of Western civilization in the midst of barbarians. Besieged on all sides within the short span of 60 years it became culturally, politically, economically, and scientifically the most developed nation of the region and deservedly proud of this great achievement. Moreover as a civilized outpost, Israel is at the forefront of the fight against the holy warriors of Islam, of Hamas and Hezbollah, the proxies of its most dangerous enemy Iran.

The author of the article might be rich in some of his psychological probing but has a very poor understanding of history. Great achievements are not the outcome of “victimhood” but they arise from the cultural, moral, and intellectual strength of a people. And Israel is a testament of that.

http://kotzabasis3.wordpress.com

Tanveer Ahmed's article is cute but it yet another variation
of the Progressive Left/Islamist Alliance for the information it omits.
The article does not mention that Hamas constantly fired rockets into Israel. Perhaps he is pretending that Jews don’t belong in the Middle East. Some facts:

Sixty per cent of Israeli Jews are refugees from Arab countries. Jews could well be indigenous to the area. They were certainly there before the Romans and the Arabs. Before the Roman Empire and Islam the prevailing culture was Greek and Jewish. Cleopatra was Greek.

There were Jewish tribes in what is now Saudi Arabia before Mohammad. Perhaps Jews should demand a right of return to the Kingdom, I am sure that the United Nations would give them a fair and unbiased hearing.

Jews provide the Left with an opportunity to be violently racist while pretending not to be.

Furthermore, I suspect that their survival and prosperity angers their pathetic Muslim neighbors who simply can not take advantage of their rich oportunities.

oo is heaving with small minds. I love it. Tragicomedy at its finest.

Cox I assume this is all based upon the great fairy story called the Bible,I think till some one can prove it I think I will reserve judgement.
I see the usual RWDBs are peddling the usual line more rubbish or Propaganda

John Ryan, you do not have to wait for someone to prove it, you can take up reading and research it your self. If you lack the necessary confidence for this you should not hold such strong opinions.
Cox

Certainly, I agree that the trauma of Jewish persecution is a huge demon lurking in the Israeli national psyche. However, it’s only part of the story behind its crimes against the Palestinian people.

Much of the continuing conflict is rooted in that age-old, universal tension between coloniser and colonised – between transplanted and indigenous populations everywhere.

It’s a mass psychological process that is almost mathematical in its consistency. Colonisers are not only intentionally blind to the horror of what they inflict on the colonised, but they also deal with their denied guilt by reinventing themselves as the victim. Because the colonised always fight back against the injustice of dispossession, the propaganda process of reinventing the perpetrator as victim is always relatively easy.

Exploitation of Holocaust trauma/guilt, combined with Israel’s excessively high status in Western diplomacy, have allowed the Israeli colonisation process to inflict a shocking litany of massacres, ethnic cleansing and other ongoing major war crimes and atrocities on the Palestinian people, that would never be tolerated in the modern era if committed by any other democracy.

Despite Tanveer Ahmed’s thoughtful piece, I cannot help but wonder at the underlying theme: ‘The inhabitants of Israel have suffered such generational trauma so as to have sustained, almost irretrievably, deep and lasting psychological damage’. This view of ‘damaged goods’ will undoubtedly 'inspire' attitudes of Western condescension, layering further ignorance over already held misconception.

To say that, “Israel’s existence depends upon the unique classification of Jewish pain” is to not only dwell in the past but, quite ironically, to also deny it. If the ‘Jewish pain’ is to be abolished then so to must the state Israel also vanish, or so the argument goes. As Chatoul says, “The suggestion that Israel's raison d'etre is only justified when viewed through that nation's history of persecution is outdated and simplistic” is as accurate a comment as I can find.

Israel’s founding fathers had the secular vision of founding a modern democratic state - to be an expression of Jewish nationalism rather than Jewish faith. It are the religiously introverted in Israel who repudiate the creation of a Jewish state as an act of sacrilegious presumption, teaching in effect a non-separation of religion and state. There is a parallel between Ultra-Orthodox Jews and the Christian Right - they both regard modernity as a tragedy and place a question mark against the legitimacy of state institutions.

The raison d'etre of the U.N.’s existence was in the formation of Israel - implicitly understood was the shame and humiliation perpetuated by the Nazi ideology on all of human kind. Jews were not unique in this sense but bore the brunt of an extreme dogma. "Historical Israel", as distinct from "literary" or "biblical" Israel, was a subset of Canaanite culture. Canaanite immigrants, who became dominant in a great delta city, were forcibly expelled by the Egyptians around 1570 BCE. The ‘rest’ is largely the substance of myth and legend – including the idea the Egyptians may perhaps have been the first ‘colonisers.’

The author notes the following: "It is often forgotten that during World War II, many Muslims reached out to Jews fleeing the Holocaust, even though many would settle in Palestine and help create the state of Israel".

While I would question the use of the word "many" ("some" may be more appropriate, given the stance of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni during World War Two and his ties to the Axis powers), it is interesting to note that in today's online edition of Arutz Sheva (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129597) there is an article titled, "Exhibition Honors Muslim Holocaust Rescuers". The article concerns an exhibition commemorating Muslim Albanians who rescued Jews during World War Two. The exhibition opens next Tuesday (International Holocaust Remembrance Day), at the mixed Jewish-Arab town of Ramle, near Lod.

As the article states: "While much of Europe was willingly giving up its Jews to the Fascists, the Albanians, whose renowned hospitality is deeply steeped in their traditions and culture, went to great lengths and personal risk to shield Jews from Nazi German occupiers of Albania during World War II".

As a result, the small Jewish population of Albania was actually larger at the end of the war than at the start and 63 of the 22,000 individuals who have thus far been recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous Among the Nations, are/were from Albania.

It is an appalling pity then to see some pro-Palestinian protesters in recent weeks spitting out vile epithets to the effect that Jews should go back to the oven as a result of Israeli policy in Gaza. They are the ones who are forgetting history.

Just reading comments such as Relda's and Savage Pencil's, I never cease to be amazed at how so many people remain in total denial of the horror Israel is inflicting on the Palestinian people. It's like a weird psychological dyslexia that seems to automatically block any sense that Palestinians are human beings.

If in doubt that Palestinian suffering might be stealing Israel's limelight as the West's favourite victims, just bring up some uplifting little tale about Holocaust survival or some obscure Old Testament tribal victory fable. Where would Hollywood be without them?

I'm sure that to some people, it's endlessly fascinating that 'Canaanite immigrants ... were forcibly expelled by the Egyptians around 1570 BCE' and that Albanians 'went to great lengths and personal risk to shield Jews from Nazi German occupiers of Albania during World War II'.

But, really, what on earth has it got to do with the fact that a population numbering in the millions has been coralled into a series of what are effectively concentration camps, where they have been starved, crippled and demoralised by a 60-year policy of state terrorism?

If the perpetrators of this inhumanity were only limited to Israel, it might be easier to understand and to forgive. But the perpetrators are not just Israel but the West's own Middle East policy - a policy that shows no signs of developing any long overdue compassion under the Obama administration.

Keith,

Hamas rockets are not provoked by blockades or any other action of Israel. Hamas rockets are aimed at Israel because it exists. Have no doubt about that. You need only look at the Hamas charter to SEE FOR YOURSELF the truth in that statement.

Hamas rocket attacks ebb and flow in concert with logistics and strategy, not political negotiation. Much as the loony left would like to pretend that quiet periods are actually signs of Hamas seeking peace, the reality is that they meet a strategic aim on the road to total victory.

Hamas baldy state that truces and agreements with Israel cannot be lasting and should be used as cover to advance their goals. It is impossible for a REAL peace be negotiated without two parties genuinely committed to it.

You say >> “... the Israeli's seem to want to extend and continue the punishment ... indefinitely. “

The above is just self indulgent nonsense. The Israelis want security. They want peace. And until recently they had an enemy who had no intention of allowing that to happen.

The average age of a Palestinian is 15.6yrs old. The history of 1948-1967-1973 is certainly no more relevant to most Palestinians than holocaust is to the Israelis.

You say >> “Have absolutely no doubt at the end of the last truce the first provoctive action was by Israel re-enforcing the blockade”
This is the most egregious nonsense. Hamas NEVER abided the terms of the truce. Rocket attacks continued during that period, and Hamas massively stepped up their arms smuggling during that period. So this idea that Israel somehow broke the truce first is diabolical. Hamas are committed in their Charter to NEVER making peace with Israel. So this idea that Israel is derailing the peace process is truly laughable.

I feel for the Palestinian people. So do a large number of Israelis. But they are the victim of their own leaders obsession with destroying Israel. It won’t happen and the sooner they realise this the sooner real peacemaking can begin.

BTW What did Gazans vote for when they elected Hamas?

Well hello PaulL

Here's Israel's problem:

'the average age of a Palestinian is 15.6yrs old.'

What's it going to be 20 years from now?

And what will be the average age of the Jewish Israel settler?

You'd be better off encourging the Jewish Israeli's to sue for peace now, while they can, rather than trying to encourage the surpression of natural growth and ... errr ... zionist regional development.

Happy New Year PaulL

A majority of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza voted against the Israeli puppet Abbas.

They've been punished by an interfering neighbour who wounldn't accept the democratic outcome of a UN supervised election.

That's just so f..king sick, unnateral and akin to nazism that it is utterly unacceptable in the Western Liberal Democratic traditions.

Israel is making it's own Armageddon with it's present actions. Why can't you rise about the snivelling snout pushing Israeli lies and propaganda and look at the longer term view.

Today's Jewish Israeli behaviour is reminesent of the behaviour of the tribe of Moses after Moses first came down the mountain with the first tablets of the Ten Commandments.

Keith,

Happy New Yyear to you.

You say >> “You'd be better off encouraging the Jewish Israeli's to sue for peace now, while they can ...”

Keith I support NOTHING except Israel’s right to defend itself. Israel is in NO mortal danger from the Palestinians. I know you hope otherwise, but it is merely wishful thinking. It is 100 times more likely that Israel will be nuked by Iran, or one of its many terrorist offshoots.

You say >> “ They've [Palestinians] been punished by an interfering neighbour who wouldn’t accept the democratic outcome of a UN supervised election.”

Keith you put more spin on this than any tennis player ever brought to court. Are you suggesting that Hamas are innocent victims of Israeli harassment who really just want to live nice quiet lives?

Israel isn’t upset that their preferred candidate lost. They don’t have problems with Hamas because they really wanted Abbas and Fatah to win. This isn’t about Israel’s desire to control Palestinian affairs. It is not about an interfering neighbour who wouldn’t accept the democratic outcome of a UN supervised election. That’s just utter rubbish.

Israel has problems with Hamas because Hamas is committed to Israel’s destruction. In other words “It’s the eco... rockets, stupid”. It really is that simple.

In matters of security it is irrelevant that Hamas is democratically elected. Israel has every right to protect itself and this insane idea that Israel should just ignore the fact there is an armed group camped across their border raining in hundreds of rockets a day and sworn to their destruction, is fantasyland. No western democracy would ever allow it. Not even for a DAY.

You say >> “That's just so f...king sick, unnatural and akin to Nazism that it is utterly unacceptable ...”

Besides being way off the mark, I find it highly ironic that you cannot see that the real Nazis in this picture, the group committed IN WRITING to the destruction of an entire people, is HAMAS. Yet how could you miss it?

It is clearly evident from the comments posted by SJF and Keith, that logical thought and cogent argument is quite beyond them.

SJF takes issue with me for raising the subject of Albanians helping and sheltering Jews during World World Two but as my previous post clearly stated, I was merely responding to a point made by the author. The author suggested that this kind of action - Muslims helping Jews during World War Two - was often forgotten. My response was to suggest that perhaps in Israel, it actually wasn't. That's all.

Anyway, after all of their blather about concentration camps and Nazism, can they please explain to me whose supporters it was who are pictured in footage shown on both YouTube and LiveLeak chanting the following: "Long live Hitler", "Put Jews in ovens" and "Jews are fossil fuel"? And actually smiling as they chant this. Oh, that's right - they're Hamas supporters in Los Angeles!!

Paul.L

'... this insane idea that Israel should just ignore the fact there is an armed group camped across their border raining in hundreds of rockets a day and sworn to their destruction, is fantasyland. No western democracy would ever allow it. Not even for a DAY.'

Really?

OK. Let’s just, for the sake of argument, assume that Israel simply MUST defend itself from all these Hamas rockets.

So why doesn’t it do just that?

The technology to defend Israel’s borders from rocket attacks has been around for at least 25 years. One of these is the Phalanx system. Considering Israel receives billions of dollars in military aid from the US, money is no object. And besides, I’m sure the US would give it to them for free.

So why doesn’t Israel use it? Why does it deliberately refrain from defending its borders with the technology to protect its own citizens?

Now … it wouldn’t be because Israel might see some propaganda value in getting hit by rockets, would it?

And it wouldn't be because Israel wants to hang onto to its favourite excuse to persecute Palestinians, would it?

And it wouldn't be because Israel wants to control its own citizens through the use of fear, now would it?

Savage Pencil

Shock, horror! Palestians screaming nasty things about ovens and Jews at rallies. Well, stuff happens when you persecute, dispossess and bomb people - they turn nasty, and use your own history to get back at you.

There's no shortage of You Tube examples of fascist abuse coming from Jews. Here's one of some Jewish settler boys screaming at Western Palestinian-rights protectors: 'We killed Jesus and we're proud of it.' [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuWOi56Wq0]

Nice ...

SJF,
Your stance is surprisingly close to that of the Jewish orthodox rabbis. Their warning was, the result of Zionism and the State of Israel will be tragic and catastrophic. “Redemption”, for them, does not mean a “State of Israel” but rather the Torah inspired, ‘time of universal peace and brotherhood, in service of the One God’ – this, quite ironically, also approaches the core tenant of Islam.

Jewish thinking relates to the Torah. The Jewish “Exile” narrates the establishment of peace and security, whilst not occupying the lands of others and spilling blood. Jews are required to be loyal citizens in the countries they live, supposedly they are "a light unto the nations" – some, quite clearly, don’t live up to this. Christians and Jews, generally (especially the ‘right-winger’ variety), have certainly misunderstood ‘Jesus the Jew'.

Whilst I don’t imagine you pray SJF, you certainly combine with the Orthodox Jews, where they have always prayed and continue to pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state (not that I neccessarily agree with this).

Compassion, the greatest virtue in all major religions prompted by the suffering of others, you have noted as important – apply it evenly.

In following the U.N. process you’d understand the Durban #1, 2001 ‘initiative’ (World Conference against Racism) - an arena where people screamed and hurled insults at each other in a re-enactment of the comedy of the damned. Durban #2, its successor conference, is planned for April (in Geneva). Former Canadian Attorney, General Irwin Kotler (member of summit's steering committee), would certainly have doubts about the #2 enactment. He said, “There is a new sophisticated, globalizing, virulent and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the '30s, and without parallel or precedent since the end of the Second World War.”

So I’ll enjoin with British lawmaker John Mann, “Anti-Semitism is a touchstone for other ills within wider society and unless we move to address its spread now, and as a matter of the utmost urgency, we will all pay a heavy price.”

Now that the dust has settled and that very important Israeli election is over, let’s look at the scorecard.

In spite of claims of precision targetting and intelligence -

In Gaza - 15,000 homes destroyed or damaged
50,000 Gazans left homeless
160 schools, 1,500 factories and workshops plus 80 percent of agricultural crops destroyed.
Five UNRWA staff and three contractors killed while on duty,
Four incidents of aid convoys being shot at
53 United Nations buildings sustained damage including the main UNRWA compound in Gaza City hit several times by Israeli shells with tonnes of food and medicine scheduled for distribution destroyed.
29 ambulances and nearly half of 122 health facilities (including 15 hospitals and 43 clinics) destroyed
16 medical personnel killed and 26 injured while on duty.

After the ceasefire, Israel continued to block humanitarian assistance, including shipments of chickpeas, dates, tea bags, macaroni, children’s puzzles, paper needed to print schoolchildren’s textbooks, and plastic bags to distribute food.

In the final tally 1,300-1,400 Palestinians were killed, between one-quarter and one-third being children.

Total Israeli casualties came to 10 combatants (four killed by friendly fire) and three civilians.

Over the last few years, more Israelis died of anaphylaxis from eating peanuts than from Hamas rockets.

It would have been smarter for Israel to bomb peanut factories instead of people.

Who are the victims here?

"Who are the victims here?"

Within perhaps the next few years a good chance about a third of the world's population.

Who is to blame? By then, it will be a question of total irrelevance. And Now - understanding the new 'Goliath' is far more constructive than the mere use our impotent little 'sling-shots.'

SJF

You say >> “Really? OK. Let’s just, for the sake of argument, assume that Israel simply MUST defend itself from all these Hamas rockets.” Sorry, which western democracy do you believe would ignore 400 rocket attacks on one of it cities every day? Which western democracy would ignore the fact that this enemy has codified its intention to destroy you?

I simply cannot believe you are suggesting that any nation would put up with such attacks.

As for the Phalanx CIWS, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Phalanx systems are point defence weapons. That is they defend a specific location. Like a ship. They fire hundreds of large calibre bullets per second and obviously these have to land somewhere. You don’t defend cities with them. They don’t work like that.

Israel is actually developing a missile based system to protect themselves from Hamas short range missiles. The difficulty is the very short flight time of the Qassam rockets. It’s called ‘Iron Dome’ and they hope to have it in operation next year.

Of course you’d probably expect the Israelis to live in their bomb shelters and ignore the rockets until a functioning system works. However NO GOVERNMENT could put up with such attacks. Nor should they.

This loony left idea that Israel is maintaining the current state of affairs so that it can persecute Palestinians is JUVENILE and is clearly incompatible with the facts. The PATHETIC suggestion that Israel is deliberately depriving its citizens of protection for propaganda purposes is SO PUERILE, it beggars belief.

And your pretence, that an idiot settler mouthing anti Christian slogans is somehow the same as the cult of death/murder that has developed in Palestine, is so monumentally flawed I’m speechless.
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/05/15/pali_children_nakba.jpg&imgrefurl=http://therealityshow.blogtownhall.com/2008/08/30/al_qaeda_in_iraq_learned_quite_quickly_from_the_palestinian_islamists_experts_in_exploiting_kids_%255Bislamofascisms_improved_methods%255D.thtml&usg=__WcNGPHy6YTR-LhOsnaJs9_dO7ms=&h=306&w=460&sz=99&hl=en&start=15&um=1&tbnid=PeoZc-iFuKh1tM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpalestine%2Bcult%2Bof%2Bdeath%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
http://newsbusters.org/node/13040

READ THE HAMAS CHARTER. Then you’ll understand why Israel has a problem with Hamas. It isn't about a desire to control Palestinian affairs, or to persecute Palestinians. Its about SECURITY.

There is an easy solution for the Palestinians. Stop rocketing Israel. Recognise Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence.

PaulL

Please explain!

Last week, after the election, Israel and Hamas agreed to another truce. Israel was to lift the blockade and Hamas agreed to stop the firing of rockets.

Peace was returning.

Lo and behold yesterday the Israeli cabinent reneged on it's agreement to the truce and refused to lift the blockade. No reason was given.

No PaulL don't point to Hamas rockets ... because none have been reported fired. Have no doubt it'd be headlines if that had occurred.

I wonder what internal political agenda the Iasraeli cabinet has planned? Like to enlighten us ... without the usual propaganda verbage?

Paul.L

Calm down. There is only one country in the world whose leaders have never put the lives of its own citizens at risk for political gain – and that’s La-La-land. So please tone down all the sacred-Israel rhetoric.

'READ THE HAMAS CHARTER'

And don't shout. I have read it - in depth. It's a typically innocuous statement of militant defiance against a ruthless enemy - typical of all statements of militancy against enemies everywhere (e.g. 'Kill the filthy Hun!' etc.). It was written in 1988, in the immediate aftermath of Israel’s brutal military suppression of the PEACEFUL first Intifada that left thousands of Palestinian youths dead. In such a climate of mass grief, a lot of anti-Jewish feeling in the Hamas charter is to be expected.

The PLO (later Fatah) charter is also very anti-Jewish – but Fatah are now our ‘friends’, so we’re expected to overlook their Jew-killing rants, just as we overlook all the Arab-annihilation rhetoric coming from the Israeli side.

And thanks for the image of kids with guns. Of course, you would only see images like that in Palestine, wouldn't you?

Keith

There’s also that other little ceasefire-breaking incident back on 4 November – that left 4 Palestinians dead and was NOT splashed all over the world’s news coverage. And, of course, any synchronisation with the world’s saturation media coverage of the US election on the same day is purely coincidental.

Keith,

I can't find any information on the truce Israel and Hamas signed which details when particular crossings etc would be opened. If you have such information I would be interested to see it.

SJF,

you say >> "There is only one country in the world whose leaders have never put the lives of its own citizens at risk for political gain – and that’s La-La-land. So please tone down all the sacred-Israel rhetoric."

Firstly, I never said Israel hadn't put its own citizens at risk. What I pointed out was the arrant stupidity of your suggestion that Israel is purposefully not defending its citizens from rockets for political gain. I note you had nothing to add regarding the Phalanx system?? ??

Secondly, how you link my pointing out of the factual inaccuracy of your attacks on Israel, with the suggestion that I think Israel is sacred is beyond me. Its hyperbole or fallacy or suchlike.

you say >> "I have read it - [THE HAMAS CHARTER] in depth. It's a typically innocuous statement of militant defiance against a ruthless enemy - typical of all statements of militancy against enemies everywhere.

A more monumental act of apologism, I have not yet come across on OLO yet. You really are either having a laugh, aren't you? Innocuous? You won't find another document more similar to Hamas Charter than Mein Kampf.

I wonder where you think "kill the filthy hun" came into Britain’s wartime policy during that conflict. Did the ruling British parties change their platforms to encompass the ethnic cleansing of Germany? I don't think so.

It just astounds me that there are people like you who refuse to accept the words of Hamas themselves. They tell the world they want to wipe out Israel, but you KNOW they don't really mean what they say?

TBC

CONT,

Please SJF, use your obviously superior deciphering skills to tell us what Hamas mean when they say.

>> " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours."

or

>> "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

How can you tell us with a straight face that these words and ideas, which Hamas leaders have repeated ad infinitum, are merely rhetoric?
Show me where ANY western gov’t has ever laid out its ideal, goals etc in a manner remotely similar to the Hamas Charter and I’ll introduce you to NAZI GERMANY.

Show me where ARAB annihilation rhetoric finds a voice in Israel’s GOV’T? You can’t compare fringe extremists of Israel’s militant right, with Hamas. Hamas are the gov’t in Gaza. They are the people who make the decisions.

Furthermore, Israel has the military power to annihilate the Arabs. They haven’t.

Hamas has repeatedly refused international community demands to recognize the right of Israel to exist, abrogate its charter and abide by the previous commitments of the Palestinian Authority.

Lucky we have you to tell us what they really mean.

As for the kids with guns ... Yes you would only see such INSANITY in a death cult state run by religous maniacs

Here is the article anouncing the truce between Israel and Hamas. It was from a report in the Australian on 13 Feb 2009.

'HAMAS has reportedly accepted an Egyptian-brokered 18-month truce with Israel in the Gaza Strip that Cairo will announce in 48 hours.

Mussa Abu Marzuk, the Islamist movement's deputy leader, said after meeting with Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman that Hamas had accepted the truce in return for the lifting of the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

“We have agreed to the truce with the Israeli side for one year and a half (in return) for the opening of all six passages between the Gaza Strip and Israel,” state news agency MENA quoted him as saying.

Egypt will announce the agreement after contacting Israel and Palestinian factions, he said.'
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25048603-15084,00.html

And here is the article announcing the reneging by Israel on the earlier reported truce. It was from a report on Saturday 21 Feb 09.

'Earlier reports said that Israel would agree to an interim truce stage in which 80 per cent of goods destined for Gaza would be permitted to enter the strip through crossings from Israel. Crossings would be opened fully only after Sergeant Shalit's release.'

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25057844-15084,00.html

PaulL why do you always have to try to show me as a liar whenever I show you something that presents Israel in a bad light?
It's quite boring ... you should have understood by now that I only ever deal in facts.
I know it's hard for you but you have to learn to accept it's usually the Israeli side that deals in weasel words, lies and propaganda.

Keith,

I'm not trying to show you to be a liar.

Seriously misguided, soft in the head even, but not a liar.

However I could find NO reports where Israel indicated that they had agreed to the truce on those terms. I'm not saying they didn't. But I'm not going to accept Hamas word for it either.

The Australian articles you provided links to are based on reports given by Hamas Deputy leader Marzak. I would merely like to see some supportng documentation from some group which isn't quite so BIASED.

Aid is getting in and Israel have opened some crossings
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/ASAZ-7PJHTJ?OpenDocument

you say >> "It's quite boring ... you should have understood by now that I only ever deal in facts. I know it's hard for you but you have to learn to accept it's usually the Israeli side that deals in weasel words, lies and propaganda."

I am laughing my ass off. You only ever deal in facts as revealed to you by Hamas and their media unit, or the loony left press. You have not once been able to back up these claims with supporting evidence.

BTW Rockets are still landing in Israel. Any wonder they aren't in a hurry to open crossings.

Hamas are are Islamo-Facist terrorist group. Your support for them is typical of the supremely misguided loony left, which expects Israel to play by rules their enemies openely scorn.

Why would Israel EVER make peace with Hamas when they SO OPENLY admit they will never honour any permanent peace agreement. That means that interim truces, such as is currently on the table, are merely breathing space for rearmament and training for new offensives.

PaulL

Just because I have a different view from you doesn't mean you can behave the Israeli bullyboy and abuse me and accuse me of supporting terrorism.

Mind you I should have come to expect such unliberal behaviour from a supporter of a fascist state ... eh?.

But PaulL the reports came not from Hamas but from the Egyptian state owned and run News ... MENA. The people who negotiated the truce and who were set to announce it before ... oh what the hell ... you're to stupid to see. Look at this your own words betray you stupidity:-

'However I could find NO reports where Israel indicated that they had agreed to the truce on those terms.'
and
'That means that interim truces, such as is currently on the table,...'
Posted by PaulL, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 9:26:17 PM

Yep that's right, both in the same post.

Do you mean after all your denial, scorn and criticism you knew all the time there was a truce?

I sometimes just shake my head in disbelief at the idiocy of the Israeli propagandists.

Look at this too 'or the loony left press'.
Since I only referenced The Australian ... Well I've never before in my life seen The Australian refered to as looney left media! MY my in your paranoia you are definately breaking new ground.

Oh my God (The Christian one ... not your Warlike one PaulL) must I state again I do not support the violence of Hamas. I do not support the violence of Israel. I condemn the violence, hatred and fascism of the one-party states of both. I support the existance of the democratically operating and elected states of Israel and of Palestine, at the '67 borders.

Now no matter how hard you try, you can't say the same ... can you ...?
Want to know why? Guess!

Keith,

Lets get a few things straight. I an Aussie with no Jewish background whatsoever. So calling me an “Israeli Bully boy” is just retarded.

If you thought about things before committing them to the thread you would realise there is a difference between ‘negotiating a truce’ and 'implementing a truce'. In the first instance, no agreements have yet been reached. There is NO TRUCE at that stage. Having a truce ‘on the table’ means that negotation of the terms of a truce is being undertaken. Ie TERMS NOT YET AGREED.

It is the second instance, where TERMS HAVE BEEN AGREED, that committs both sides to the truce.

You say >> “ Do you mean ...you knew all the time there was a truce? “

Since I have now explained to you what ‘having a truce on the table’ means you will understand how stupid the above rant makes you look.

You say >> “... not your Warlike [god] PaulL) must I state again I do not support the violence of Hamas.”

I don’t believe in god for starters. And you back up the above nonsense by admitting that you support the “democratically elected” Hamas gov’t. I see. You back the democratically elected Islamo-Facists (who have now dispensed with democracy ) who are committed, in their founding documents, to the destruction of another country. Thats mighty liberal of you I must say. You spend all your time on these M.E. threads attacking Israel . I have not yet seen a post from you discussing what Hamas should do to end the violence, yet you pretend that you deplore the violence of both sides.

You say >> “I condemn the violence, hatred and fascism of the one-party states of both”

This is pure stupidity. Israel is clearly NOT a one party state.

I support the existence of the democratically operating and elected states of Israel and Palestine, at the 1967 borders. Once the “democratic” Hamas gov’t renounce violence and terrorism and recognise Israels right to exist (and mean it), I will expect Israel to retreat behind the 1967 borders

So many weasel words Paul.

You've totally rewritten the result and history surrounding the Palestinian election and Israel's subsequent meddling.

'However I could find NO reports where Israel indicated that they had agreed to the truce on those terms.'

Paul I'll state the obvious to help you. This statement says you couldn't find reports. Clearly there were reports. Therein lies your undoing.

Paul of course I support the elected Hamas government ... doh ... that's how democracy works.

Paul I have often refered you to the Hamas election manifesto.
You in your disdain for democracy and it's rules seem to have a mental block in this regard. Get over it.

You wouldn't spout the nonsense you do about Hamas election if you understood how our democracies work and you'd also agree Israel is as close to a one party state as is possible without actually being one. Israel is a pretend democracy there really isn't much choice. You have all these people standing for election who try to be more violent than each other.

Tell me Paul, how do the major parties in Israel differ on attack policy? There is really no choice. They continually in their paranoia form Governments of national unity. And what about that extremist nutjob Russian and his policies?

Why can't you simply condemn the Israeli violence?

It's so easy ... come on try it... it might help open up your mind and stop your typical Israeli bullyboy abuse.

Keith,

You say >> “You've totally rewritten the result and history surrounding the Palestinian election and Israel's subsequent meddling.”

I have no idea what you are refferring to. Typical loony left rant.

You say >>“ This statement says you couldn't find reports. Clearly there were reports. Therein lies your undoing.”

You really are a bit thick aren’t you. This does not tally with my statement that “I could find 'NO reports where ISRAEL INDICATED that they had agreed to the truce on those terms.'" I also noted that this didn’t mean it wasn’t true. However You have failed to provide any evidence of Israel agreeing to the conditions alleged.

you say >> “of course I support the elected Hamas government ... doh ... that's how democracy works.”

Again you make it obvious how naive and thoughtless you are. So by your logic, democratcally elected means legitemate? Is that right? Mugabe was democratically elected. So were the Nazis. Were they legitemate and deserving of your support?

Just because Hamas have been democratically elected doesn’t necessarily mean the rest of the world should simply accept it. Legitemacy is NOT automatically conferred by being democratically elected.

The founding documents of Hamas amply demonstrate the fact that they are an anti-democratic organisation with genocaidal ambitions.

You say >> “ ... if you understood how our democracies work ... you'd also agree Israel is as close to a one party state as is possible without actually being one.”

What a load of absolute bullsh!t. Firstly I fully understand how our democracy works. Secondly I would not agree that Israel is as close to being a one party state as it is possible without actually being one. This is sheer stupidity. Its not even close.

If you had a brain and were able to use it you would know that Israel has governments of national unity more often than most countries for two reasons. Firstly they are under near constant attack from their enemies across their borders. North,South and East.Secondly, Israels voting system makes it very difficult for any one group to gain an outright majority.

PaulL

You shouldn't yell Paul that's called bullying.

I have been thinking about your previous post and especially your comment

'You spend all your time on these M.E. threads attacking Israel .'

Perhaps you'd be happier if I just sat down and said nothing ... is that so PaulL?

To stop your continual abuse I might just do that.

That'd fit with your ideas of Israeli democracy!

And especially with the ideas of that Russian Jewish nutjob.

You know in our democracy in Australia we once produced a similar nut job named Pauline who spouted similar rubbish. She was roundly condemned by all our elected representatives and was eventually thrown out by the voters.
In Israel such a nutjob is given legitimacy and probably a nutjob place with all the other cabinet rerun nutjobs.

We in Australia recognised such nutjobs are a genuine threat to our democracy because they spout rubbish that is totally at odds with our democracy and if they gain any sort of ascendency they can totally undermine our system.

In Israel no such concern is shown at all. Why not? Answer that poser for yourself PaulL I am not interested.

Now come on PaulL where's your condemnation of the Israel attack dog forces' violence and the mass shootings of women and children and other civillians.

Don't you realise 60% of the inhabitants of the Gaza strip are women and children?
Oh I'm not lefty ... I'm to the right in the political spectrum.

Mugabe and the Nazi's elections were not shown to be fair . The election in Palestine was overseen by the UN and Hamas was saiod by them to have been fairly elected. Israel stuck it's nose into the Palestinian affairs when it's lapdog wasn't elected.

Legitimacy and approval are two different things Paul. Why don't you understand that ... it's really pretty simple. Legitimacy is conferred automatically by majority vote... it's approval that isn't. Doh!

Paul check out the election manifesto of Hamas ... that's the basis on which they were elected ... like in every other democracy ... Israel excepted of course