Before I even read this article, let me make the following point.

This is the SECOND person to write an anti-Greece article on this site, yet not one pro-Greek article has been written.

Why?

Well, I did not have to go too far into the article to see that the writer is full of vitriol towards Greece.

The following statement, for example, is very confusing.

"Macedonia and its people have been in existence centuries before Christ and have a separate language and identity from the Greeks"

Is the writer claiming that Alexander the Great spoke Slavic? That is what can be implied. I do not need to read any further.

You do your readers a disservice with such poor writing.

Savvas Tzionis

Perhaps the problem is ethnic nationalism itself. Unification of any people by any standard of ethnicity or religion will mean that people of a different ethnicity and religion will be within the national boundaries and not share the paradigm on which the state is constructed. They will likely be second-class citizens. The solution to this problem is to have secular governments with separation of religion and state and equal treatment of all regardless of ethnicity and religion. Switzerland has retained its present boundaries since 1648. The country has four languages, several religions and is one of the most stable countries in Europe. Australia is a multicultural society where immigrants are encouraged to keep their ethnic associations. The Aboriginal languages are now recognised for their value and their preservation is encouraged.

When Prime Minister Costas Simitis wanted to strip all references to religion from the new national ID card there were howls of protest. Greece has a magnificent heritage dating far earlier than the Orthodox Church. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aristophanes and other great minds still enrich our culture. None of them were Orthodox and would have possibly rejected Christianity altogether.

Who was Alexander? He was an unimaginative brute who wept because he had no more worlds to conquer. He couldn’t think of anything more worthwhile to do than to conquer and kill. Does it matter what language that scum spoke?

Let Greece recover its magnificent heritage and be open to all thought, opinions, ethnicity and religions.

David

Get your facts right. If you are going to use Switzerland as a positive example you may want to point out how it votes on the acceptance of immigrants at the local level and very often the Swiss reject people from non-European backgrounds

Dear Chris,

My facts are right on Switzerland. The article addressed a squabble over boundaries and national designation between Greece and Macedonia. Switzerland is not a paradise, and the people with different ethnicities can be quite prejudiced toward each other. However, its boundaries have been stable since 1648, and its only internal conflict during that time was the war of the sonderweg in the nineteenth century.

David,

Of course, your facts are right. Switz maintains a stable society by ensuring that those poor immigrants who want to live in their nation mostly look and behave just like them.

Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC)

Please view all our articles so far at:

http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3493

info@macedonian.com.au

www.macedonian.com.au

Aaaah...WELCOME to the world of...."Australian MultiCulturalism"

Isn't it great when all you have been long saying about 'difference' is in fact underlined, exemplified, illustrated and portrayed in living color before our very eyes by Macedonians and Greeks....who love to hate each other?

MACEDONIAN view:

<<Greece’s constant attempts to destroy Macedonian culture, language, identity and civilisation not only in Aegean Macedonia but also in the Republic of Macedonia, in the EU, the UN and here in Australia.>>

GREEKS view:

<<This is the SECOND person to write an anti-Greece article on this site, yet not one pro-Greek article has been written.>>
and
<<Well, I did not have to go too far into the article to see that the writer is full of vitriol towards Greece.>>

NEWSFLASH to both of you.... THIS IS AUSTRALIA and if you want to bring your historical ethnic squabbles to this country LEAVE!..get BACK TO the countries concerned... fight it out amongst ur selves.. last man standing... go for it.. have fun....but

LEAVE IT out of "THIS" Country ok !

Sadly.. human nature being what it is.. (and thus making humans incompatible with such ridiculous ideas as 'multi' culturalism)

Greeks see Australia through a 'greek' cultural/historical lenz and Macedonians do also through a 'macedonian' one.

And of course..the Vietnamese..the Chinese...the Cambodians....same same.

EDUCATION is the answer. We must actively teach that it is 'UN'australian to being these ethno/historical squabbles here.

AUSTRALIA NEEDS A SENSIBLE POLICY ON.....AUSTRALIA!

If we have to check our opinions/policies at the door of every ETHNIC community organization before we gazzette it...then pity us.

You blokes.. ur both welcome to MIGRATE back to the lands you or your ancestors came from...nick off....shoo...go away... get lost.

OR...

You can decide like the rest of us, that Australia is for Aussies...and we have our OWN identity, which (shock horror) does NOT happen to be Greek or Macedonian OR.."English" or Irish or Scottish.

Contemporary Macedonia never was inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. People who inhabited this theritory were named "paeonians". You can read about them in google using terms like "paeonians macedonia" or "paeonians vardar".
Also here:

http://books.google.com/books?spell=1&hl=bg&as_brr=3&q=paeonians&btnG=%D0%A2%D1%8A%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5+%D0%BD%D0%B0+%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B8

Polycarp wrote:

You can decide like the rest of us, that Australia is for Aussies...and we have our OWN identity, which (shock horror) does NOT happen to be Greek or Macedonian OR.."English" or Irish or Scottish.

Dear Polycarp,

Australia has more business taking a position on the squabble between Greeks and Macedonians than it had in invading Turkey during WW1, fighting the Boers in South Africa or being involved in the many conflicts of the British Empire which had absolutely nothing to do with the well-being or interests of Australia or Australians.

I see absolutely nothing wrong in Greeks or Macedonians caring about the fortunes of their compatriots and lobbying the Australian government to take a position on the matter.

You mentioned in a recent post how you demonstrated in favour of Israel. I see nothing wrong in that, but that is no more Australia’s business than the quarrel between Greeks and Macedonians. It was an issue you cared about, and you had as much right to make your views known as those Australians who care about Greece and Macedonia. However, it is inconsistent if you express your views but object to Greeks and Macedonians expressing theirs in another foreign quarrel. Is it ok only to be interested in the foreign conflicts you are interested in?

I am a citizen of both the USA and Australia, am very concerned about what happens in the USA and was very happy at the election of Barack Obama who I voted for by absentee ballot.

I care for Australia and do not care the less because I am still an American. Greeks, Macedonians and others can feel the same about their homelands and Australia.

Unfortunately, many opponents of multiculturalism really resent the fact that Australia no longer gives priority to the interests of the British Empire. Hooray for multiculturalism!

There is one thing I don't understand. Why would anyone want to claim a butcher like Alexander the Great? His idea was apparently to conquer as much of the world as he could and put as many people under his thumb as he could. That makes him a number 1 rotten nogoodnik in my eyes.

With all the great people in that part of the world why claim him? He is somebody to be ashamed of.

David f,

Your point about Alexander is quite pertinent. I would suspect that one reason his legacy was not honoured by the Greek nation (until the late 1980's) was because he was exactly that, a bit if a butcher.

Since then, he has been a tool rather than an ideal in itself. Remember, he is the one of the 'First Macedonians'.

In a visceral sense, Greeks (in the diaspora, especially) feel very vexed having to hear that a person is Macedonian (and therefore NOT Greek). It implies that 35% of the Greek State is 'illegal'.

So Greece continues to use its powers in the EU and the UN to ask for a compromise.

As for your demolition of Polycarp, that was very good.

Again I hark back to this purely political piece of writing by the author. Why did ONO allows such a partisan piece to be entered?

I would suggest that one reason is that the owner's of this site just took on face value the views of the Slav-Macedonian's as being 'honest'. If so, the propaganda by the Slav-Macedonians has been successful.

I don't see how some in here see Alexander as merely a butcher..

One has to have some historical understanding, and perspective, in order to comprehend peoples of other eras..

Secondly, Alexander built countless cities, created a library filled with all the knowledge of antiquity, and is probably the first man in recorded history to see beyond race and color of skin.
He is the first one to have attempted Globalization.

Back then, war was part of life. The Persians always dreamed of taking the Hellenic city states and its alliances.

Now, I also read that Greece did not care about Macedonia before the 1980's.

This is simply NOT true.
I have seen this written before. It is NOT true.

My ancestors went to war for the liberation of Macedonia from the Ottomans. Great struggles saw the light of day back then.
The Bulgarians also claimed the Macedonia region.
Macedonians, as an ethnic group DID NOT exist.

Anyways, I wont go on.
What is happening now days is a farce, and the newly formed country of FYROM is in the wrong.
They are the aggressors playing the victim,
when all they have ever been, is turncoats..
The sided with the Nazis, (their country was called Vardaska then)
Then when the Nazis were loosing, they became communist..
Then they renamed their country(again) to Macedonia,
and then, they start claiming ancient Greek and Bulgarian heroes.

What a people.

They have, as we speak, a very active anti Hellenic propaganda machine at work, working hard to discredit Greece.

What a people..

Savvas Tzionis wrote:

In a visceral sense, Greeks (in the diaspora, especially) feel very vexed having to hear that a person is Macedonian (and therefore NOT Greek). It implies that 35% of the Greek State is 'illegal'.

Dear Savvas Tzionis,

I would like to see both Greece and Macedonia become multicultural countries whose governments didn’t really care about the religion, ethnicity and language of their citizens. That would end the conflict.

Just as you are Australian regardless of your ethnic connections a citizen of Greece could be Greek regardless of whether he or she was also a Macedonian. When Prime Minister Costas Simitis wanted to strip all references to religion from the new national ID card that seemed to me what he was aiming at.

There was a Greek fellow in Brisbane whose mother kept bugging him to go church with her. Finally he went and stopped in front of an icon of Jesus. He said in a loud voice, “Can’t remember the name but the face sure looks familiar.” His mother stopped bugging him to go to church.

Edgar Allan Poe, an American who appreciated the glory of ancient Greece wrote the following:

HELEN, thy beauty is to me
Like those Nicèan barks of yore
That gently, o'er a perfumed sea,
The weary way-worn wanderer bore
To his own native shore.

On desperate seas long wont to roam,
Thy hyacinth hair, thy classic face,
Thy Naiad airs have brought me home
To the glory that was Greece,
And the grandeur that was Rome.

Lo, in yon brilliant window-niche
How statue-like I see thee stand,
The agate lamp within thy hand,
Ah! Psyche, from the regions which
Are holy land!

Boriss:

Alexander built nothing. Others built for him. He was a murderous brute who didn’t pay attention to the race or colour of skin of his victims and filled a library with his loot. The Nazis collected art, too. War a way of life? Some can see beyond that. Alexander, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler and other efficient murderers were all globalizers.

Dear David,
Your view of the world is as beautiful as it is Utopia.

Your views of History lack historical perspective and understanding.

I am not attacking you in any way, please do not misunderstand me.

Just point me 1 building in antiquity that was not build by slaves..

You must also read the letters of Napoleon, before you let someone else form the opinion you have about him, for you..

And I will end by giving you, (as you did), the oath of Alexander:

• Now that the wars are over, I wish you to find happiness through peace.

• May all mortals live from now on in harmony, as one nation,
for the sake of common prosperity.

• Consider the world as your country, with common laws, governed by men of merit, regardless of race.

• I do not distinguish between Greeks and barbarians, as do the narrow-minded.

• I am not interested in the country or race of origin of people.
I only distinguish people according to their virtues.

• To me every virtuous foreigner is Hellene and each non-virtuous Greek is worse than a barbarian.

• If you are ever faced with differences, do not resort to arms, but resolve them peacefully. If need be, I can act as your arbitrator.

• God should not be viewed as an authoritarian ruler,
but as our common father.

• As for myself, I consider all persons, black or white, as equals.

• I wish you to be my partners and not just members of our commonwealth.

• As far as I am able, I shall see to it that all my promises come true.

• Regard this oath as a symbol of love.

Dear Boriss,

Alexander spoke a most beautiful oath. I know you write to me in friendship. Although I am not a bible basher I sometimes find something there. One thing it says is that by their fruits shall you know them - not their words. That oath is something to live by, but I don't think Alexander lived by it. Alexander was a brilliant man who was taught by Aristotle and was skilled in rhetoric. In the words of Hamlet, "One may smile and smile and yet be a villain."

I know the Persians wanted to take all Greece. However, Alexander didn't stop after he defeated Persia he wanted to dominate as much of the world as he could.

The Persian empire was rotten. In the Anabasis Xenophon told how he led a group of Greeks to fight their way through a large part of the Persian Empire. The Greeks knew more about the Persians than the Persians knew about the Greeks. Almost every place that Xenophon went some Greek in the group knew the language of the local people. The 300 Spartans put up a magnificent defense against the Persians, but, even if they hadn't, I don't think the Persians would have ever conquered Greece.

However, like that ancient Greek, Diogenes, I am a cynic. When Alexander came to Diogenes and asked if he could do anything for him Diogenes said, "Get out of my light."

That is my feeling about all the great conquerers. Napoleon, Alexander, Genghis Khan and others were extremely intelligent but villains all.

Savvas Tzionis: << This is the SECOND person to write an anti-Greece article on this site, yet not one pro-Greek article has been written.

Why? >>

Probably because nobody's submitted one to OLO for publication. Why don't you do so?

Porkycrap: << NEWSFLASH to both of you.... THIS IS AUSTRALIA and if you want to bring your historical ethnic squabbles to this country LEAVE!..get BACK TO the countries concerned... fight it out amongst ur selves.. last man standing... go for it.. have fun....but

LEAVE IT out of "THIS" Country ok ! >>

This written by someone who has proudly announced that he'll be attending a demonstration in Melboourne today about another "historical ethnic squabble" occurring on the other side of the planet.

I love the smell of rank hypocrisy in the morning...

Think Global

R u a citizen of the world or an Australian local?

Boriss wrote:

Just point me 1 building in antiquity that was not build by slaves.

Dear Boriss,

There are many buildings in antiquity which were not built by slaves. Although we do not have the construction details for all ancient buildings we do know of some.

I found this on the net:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

Archaeological discoveries by Mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass lead some to claim that the workers who built the pyramids were not enslaved.

The priests themselves built the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

You only asked me to name one building. I’m sure there were many others.

When I was in Greece I visited Delphi. There are many inscriptions marked on the walls. Most were from ancient visitors to the place mentioning that they had freed slaves. Even though slavery was accepted many apparently thought it was a good thing to free slaves.

The conditions of slaves in the ancient world varied greatly. Those in the mines at Laurium suffered horribly. Other slaves administered great estates, taught or were regarded as members of the family.

Regarding Alexander’s beautiful oath it is quite common for the aggressors to appeal to justice, freedom or democracy. The important thing is to consider their actions. It is hypocrisy to slaughter one’s way around the known world and then say, “As for myself, I consider all persons, black or white, as equals.” Do you who make a difference between Greeks and Macedonians live by it?

Napoleon spoke of freedom and said, “Every man carries a marshal’s baton in his knapsack.” The reality is that he appointed his relatives to positions of power and tried to re-enslave the freed slaves in Haiti.

George Bush bombed the hell out of Iraq in his ‘shock and awe’ bombing but talked of spreading democracy.

Some regard Alexander, Napoleon and George Bush as liberators. Diogenes knew better.

As far as war being a way of life even in the ancient world some questioned. King David of Israel was not allowed to build the Temple, as he was a man of war. His son, Solomon, did it.