Howard was a classic bread-and-circuses politician. The electorate was quite happy with the lies when they enabled it to believe Australia would always be rich and white, and that giving in to one's most base and primitive prejudice was, in fact, a sign of true blue larrikin wisdom.

It only came apart when Howard gave rein to the Liberal Party's core value: class hatred. WorkChoices destroyed the image Howard had built as a friend of the working people he, in fact, despised and viewed as the chattels of business.

I believe Turnbull is a principled and modern man, unlike Howard. But he is lumbered with people who still reckon the proper way to campaign is to deceive the electorate by any means possible, then sneak your real agenda through while the Murdoch press provides a smokescreen of racist/religious/economic panic.

The Libs can either get with the Turnbull program and become a dominant political force again, or stay wedded to the personality cult of Howard and eventually give way to the Greens as her Majesty's opposition.

Gee Bruce and Sancho two classic Howard Haters! John Howard was a good Prime Minister and only narrowly lost the last election. The Liberals should never listen to you blokes who are Greens apologists. The Greens are the new Nazi's supported by people who previously supported all the diabolic communist regimes around the world. Some of these regimes are still hanging on as basket cases and without a shred of democracy. Read US and Australian history and find out more about the people you rail against.
The Liberals are an infinitely better proposition than Labour, and the Greens are not in the same time zone.

JBowyer,

In what way was Howard a good PM? The Howard government left us with an enormous foreign debt, neglect of education,a decay in infrastructure and manufacturing and divisive policies that in true Machiavellian style pandered to predjuice and short term interests.The sinister "anti-terrorism" and work choice laws were the most alarming. Howard was in power simply to exclude Labor,he and his government had nothing constructive to offer the voters.

Sancho,

Howard might have been a bread and circuses politician, most of the bread was stale, the ridiculous first home buyers grant is a prime example of a policy that is, in fact, counter productive.

The mistake made by the more ardent left - and potentially by the Liberal party in electing someone who should be a Labor Right member as its leader - is believing that the 2007 defeat was somehow a "rejection" of the "Howard values" come legacy.

It wasnt. It was a rejection of Workchoices coupled to the simple historic winds of change. No goverment lasts forever. Costello may have won in 2007 even with Workchoices, had he given a sufficent perception of leadership change, regardless of from what or to what, but John Winston Howard died by the "youve had your turn" sword.

You want to know what really, really lost the 2007 election?

The 2004 elected senate majority, without which workchoices would still be a Howard dream, And JW Howard still the Prime Minister of Australia. Nothing more, nothing less. Certainly none of this rubbish about supposed "racist xenophobic policies" or other farleft projected sillyness had anything at all to do with it - Howard didnt sway the redgreen hippies to vote against the Liberals by not letting illegals out of detention; they wernt voting for him anyway.

Advocating the removal of Abbott is rediculous. Short of the pheonix-like revival of Peter Costello, Abbott is as likely as any to be the next Liberal PM.

I am with you J Bowyer
Haigh is an inveterate Howard hater, not sure why (but nor do I care).

Just as the Keating legacy was the stink of a budget deficit and blow out in government debt;

So the Howard legacy is the massive budget surplus and the public debt not only retired but long term problems with unfunded government superannuation resolved and the government actually setting up future funds.
However we now see , true to socialist form, the incumbent incompetents who have flushed the surplus away with 10 billion dollars of political voting buying, and are rapidly moving to rape the economy with an orgy of public works, building “the road to nowhere”.

As for mac’s post “The Howard government left us with an enormous foreign debt,”

Wrong, Howard paid down the burgeoning government debt he inherited from the useless Keating and Co. The foreign debt mac is thinking of is that owed by private individuals, not by the recipients of tax payers funds and those individuals are perfectly entitled to borrow from anyone prepared to lend to them, as they see fit.

However, Krudd & Co will soon bring back the public back, to saddle our children and grand children with tax funded interest charges.

Regarding “the ridiculous first home buyers grant is a prime example of a policy that is, in fact, counter productive.”

And what is mac’s view of the imbiciles who have raised that particular fillip by a factor of four, as well as the labor state government who, in Victoria, where I am, added state funds to it?

Howards Legacy is already written and he will pass into history as the politician who never pretended he knew what was best for everyone but left them with money in their pocket to spend as they saw fit, unlike the incumbent bug-eyed twit.

Col Rouge,

Do you still think that private debt is harmless? Less ideology and more reality. Ask the Americans. Of course Labor will get the blame for Howard's legacy.

If Turnbull has enough sense to avoid backing KRudd's carbon trading fiasco, he has it made. There is now just so much evidence showing what a pack of cards AGW is, I am amazed KRudd is going ahead.

When the con, collapses in the next couple of years, the electorate will carry anyone, wise enough to call the con early, into office on their sholders.

Unfortunately, I don't think he's smart enough to see through the rubbish yet, & if he doesn't, he'll be berried with the other fools.

Let us hope that a few wise people appear in the near future, we sure need them, right now

Hasbeen, I think you need to have a closer look at the diminishing amount of Arctic ice before you dismiss AGW so lightly.

David

David, have a look at the growing Arctic ice mate, the ongoung cooling, & ice growth in the antarctic, & the cooling oceans in general.

Even that hot bed of conservative thought, the Canberra Times is now questioning the validity of the so called science, of the IPCC

Nothing in Bruce Haigh’s list of qualifications gives him the right to decide what Malcolm Turnbull, or anyone else, has to do to get elected. Voters will tell Turnbull what he needs to do; and maybe, he is quite happy to go with the Howard doctrine. Howard was just past it, personally; there was nothing wrong with his ideas, apart from the fact that he never stood by his “we will decide who comes here” promise, resulting in an anything-goes policy with illegal entrants, soon to be further softened by Rudd Labor.

I would have thought, though, that Turnbull would have been wet enough for Bruce. It seems that Tony Abbott is the only politician in Australia talking the talk that will get the Coalition back.

Despite Bruce’s assertion that: “The electorate passed judgment on that brand of degraded politics by voting Howard out of office”, he has absolutely no idea why individuals voted the way they did. I suspect that, as usual they voted on matters concerning them directly, and not on such ideas as “John Howard’s rapidly thinning policies and congealed prejudices.” I believe that Howard did lose the election, and as he lost his own seat, it was because of him, not his policy. He was a tired old man starting to believe his own legend without having the resolve to live up to it.

Instead of standing back and presuming to tell other people what to do, perhaps Haigh should have a go at politics himself and have some of his wacky ideas truly tested.

Howard's legacy is a nation now largely owned by overseas corporations and with massive personal debt levels, generated in part by a manufactured belief that everything would be fine as long as he was in power.

I suspect that the real reason for his "narrow" defeat was the gradual public realisation that not all was as well in the electorate as he was making out.

People were sick of being told how well-off they were at the same time that homelessness, poverty, bankruptcies, youth suicide and all the other negative social indicators were also at record levels.

Gratuitous exploitation of the workers was only the final straw in a long list of divisive policies.

The favoured political tool of the conservatives has always been to "use the wedge" - divide the community up into internally warring groups and distract attention from the policy makers unless it suited them and Howard was a master at this.

The last time this happened was under Fraser. Remember Hawke's catchcry? Social reconciliation? Some people have short memories.

Watching his performance on "The Howard Years" showed him conceding that pure luck had as much to do with his political success as his well-promoted partnership with Captain Smirk.

As for the previous crippling overseas debt, more money now flows out of our economy now as a percentage of GDP in the form of dividend payments to those overseas owners of the public assets that we used to own, and all we have in return is a crumbling infrastructure and a list of missed opportunities.

I think that at some point, the public decide they don't like what their society is becoming, look for change and Howard's time was up.

Mac “Do you still think that private debt is harmless? Less ideology and more reality. Ask the Americans. Of course Labor will get the blame for Howard's legacy.”

No one with a private debt can blame anyone else for that debt, as the borrower they were not forced to accept the money, they have had the benefit of the money which was advanced to them, they freely chose to encumber themselves with the responsibility.

Of course private debt can be harmful if you overextend yourself but that is a matter of personal discipline.
I have my own private debt and have deliberately maintained a tight reign on what I spend to keep any debt within my capacity and desire to finance

I have a mortgage facility which is 25% utilized (75% undrawn)
I have a credit card with a huge limit but which is paid off every month.
And I usually get offers of two or three more credit cards a month if I wanted them.

The benefit with my private debt versus a socialist government borrowing like the intellectually retarded in a toy shop is

I can control the interest I am liable for and will have to pay on my private debt

But

I have no control over how much of my taxes will be used to service (pay interest) the debt a profligate government will run up on my behalf.

I explained the Howard legacy, if Krudd and Co had inherited the debts and the deficit which that slob, Keating ran up, they would not have had the 10 billion lying around to buy votes with.

And now we hear how a federal government “deficit budget” is “OK”. . .

"OK", my Arse…

It is like mortgaging our childrens’ future to pay for our present.
another Socialist lie to cover the excesses of their perverse

“Socialism by Stealth” agenda.

Wobbles “the public decide they don't like what their society is becoming, look for change and Howard's time was up.”

Well I hope you are happy as we sell out our children to become a “banana republic”

Turnbull is no stateman. He flipflops on ideology and is merely an "opposition". A little bit of bipatisanship where it counts could give the Libs the credibility they need.
God knows we need a strong opposition.
I reckon the Carbon trading scheme will be a failure: Carbon tax with all proceeds equally allocated is the simplest way.
Hasbeen: Check your facts...from some authoritative sources not a local hack journalist. The ice is *retreating* the glaciers are *shrinking* (95% of them anyway).
Saying it aint so will not make it go away.

Col,
Our childrens' future was already sold out from under them by the privatisation of public assets, which typically leads to "private wealth/public squalor".

Also, since money in the modern financial system actually represents debt, the "wealth" we created literally out of thin air to service our own insatiable consumption and greed is a debt that will have to be repaid by future generations.

As for "socialism by stealth", it's interesting to see how unfettered capitalism is constantly being bailed out by the public (social) purse.

It just goes to show how dodgy the globalised world economy really is and how truly vulnerable our own economy had become.

I'm also prudent with my own financial situation but it didn't stop me from losing a huge slab of my own superannuation and investments.

I'm not happy about it either but I don't blame it on things that happened in only the last six months.

Hasbeen: "have a look at the growing Arctic ice mate, the ongoung cooling, & ice growth in the antarctic, & the cooling oceans in general."

Er ... I guess we should welcome you to the academic corridors of a science *hasbeen* - you have discovered that;

1. Arctic ice extent increases in Winter
2. When you put energy into a defined system, it heats up, water evaporates and must condense out somewhere as rain or snow
3. You don't understand anything about land/ocean/atmosphere coupled systems, let alone radiative heat transfer and heat content of water.

Well done ... next you will be telling us global warming only happens in summer!

Hey hasbeen, polish your display case ... the Nobel for physics or chemistry is on the way.

Hell, Q&A, I wouldn't want one of them Nobel things, I don't think I would like the company. They gave one of them to that conman Gore, didn't they?

As for the corridors of academia, I aint that impressed.

When I told my old engineering professer what I had done to build the most successful motor racing engine in Oz, to that date, he told me it would never work. Fortunately for me, I'd had an amateur teach me about internal combustion engines.

You should go well there, mate. Anyone who can suggest it is winter in the arctic, & antartic, at the same time is sure to get a guensery with the AGW research crowd any time.

Wobbles “Our childrens' future was already sold out from under them by the privatisation of public assets,”

Government running public assets in a competitive and commercial world is open to the worst abuses of monopoly power which produces a far greater risk to our childrens future than mere economics.

The socialist system encourages the centralization of power, away from the innovative individual and ends up ruthlessly “maintaining the status quo”, as history has recorded.

I want more than anything for my children and grand children to be free to make their own way in the world they will inherit from us. Regardless of the economics, that world is best assured by denying the edifices which socialism endeavours to build and then hands over to some far less savory characters.

“unfettered capitalism is constantly being bailed out by the public (social) purse.”

Ask almost any US republican or someone like myself, I would sooner see the large corporate dinosaurs left to face survival in the market than to have a cent of tax payers money diverted to haul their backsides from out the fire

I think you will find it was the dogmatic socialist ideals of homeownership for those incapable of behaving responsibly which was the instigator of the debts failure which then US banks suffered from through the collapse of the government lending agencies, Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae and not the “unfettered capitalism” which you like to divert blame to.

Hey hasbeen

Being talked down to and patronized by Q&A means you must be telling the truth.

Q&A has a vested interest in high taxes and high government control of resources, he works in “Academia” which means he is generally incapable of generating a commercial worth for whatever his penchant happens to be and relies on the taxes expropriated from the likes of you and me and other real people to fund his ivory tower existence.

Hasbeen
You could teach me a lot about internal combustion engines I'm sure.

Sorry, the following was posted elsewhere http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2395

You either have a very simple mind, or you are deliberately distorting what I’ve said.

If the former, let me make it simpler.

You said to David (VK3AUU) “have a look at the growing Arctic ice mate ...”

This is a typical response/excuse from the ‘deny-n-delay’ brigade that usually follow it up by saying that global warming is a myth or a world-wide conspiracy. It seems people like you fail to appreciate that Arctic ice extent grows in ‘extent’ every winter or that last year’s ice extent was the lowest in recorded history – with Russia, Canada, US, Greenland, Denmark and others jockeying for passage and exploration rights.

You also fail to understand that the growth in ‘ice extent’ every winter is ‘new ice’ – it is thinner and it has not replaced the thicker ‘old ice’ – you know, the bit that has melted, gone.

These links may help others, if not you:

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/heavy-snow-job/

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/arctic-ice-update/

You also said to David; “have a look at the ... ice growth in the Antarctic”

You clearly did not understand my comment: “When you put energy into a defined system, it heats up, water evaporates and must condense out somewhere as rain or snow.”

Ice mass has been growing on the inner portion of Antarctica, it has been losing ice mass from the ice shelves.

Hasbeen, if you are deliberately distorting what I have said ... then, you are just a liar.

_______

Col, you keep talking down to me so I am telling the truth.

We have to stop meeting like this - people might think you are my sock-puppet or that we share a motel room.

Malcolm Turnbull is not doing well as he is a bad choice to lead a Conservative party. When Nelson was the leader, the media kept talking about how Rudd was stuffing up because Nelson kept putting the Rudd Government under the spotlight and Rudd was falling apart for it.

Now that we have Turnbull in charge, the pressure has been taken off the Rudd Government as Turnbull is foolish enough to agree with all policy then whine about the details. He is looking like a whinger while Nelson was the one who made Rudd crumble. Note that the media only looked at the preferred leader at this time because in Nelson's first 3 months as leader, he had put the Coalition in a winning position. Turnbull has thrown it all away on trying to appeal to voters who would never vote Liberal in their life.