Polycarp, Country Gal
Human nature has it that is all about POWER everything else flows from that. One could argue that most ‘ism’s’ are about power the search for it, the gaining of and maintenance of it once gained.
The tragedy is that what ever high ideals that ‘isms’ start power will corrupt it. The 1st Lord of Acton quoined it “power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely” be it Socialism, Capitalism or Fundamentalism.

Yabby, Col Rouge,
I think you’re confusing capitalism with democracy. No ism has ever been tried uninhibited except derivatives and that didn’t end well.
You can have capitalism of sorts but not freedom i.e. China

Liz says:

"These goods that are produced, however, do not belong to the workers who have made them"

That thinking is exactly the same entitlement attitude that drives greedy quasi-capitalists who expect to get fat salaries and bonuses after they ran a business into the ground... ALL CARE and NO RESPONSIBILITY.

The current system is only capitalist in form, not in function. Its basically a huge ruse, a massive con that the central planners of goverment, treasury, reserve banks have worked beautifully to sell us the idea that we are free to interact on our own terms.

Also, capitalism doesnt necessarily eat itself, just b/c some people use scarce resources to capitalise the product of their minds. At core capitalism takes the product of mind and converts it into a tradeable claim. It can do it by projecting the product of mind (pure creation in its most essential and abstract form) onto the physical and the abstract.

For example, someone can write a story, some music, they can entertain or educate and exchange claims (eg. money) for it. In effect they are capitalising the product of their minds and giving spectators a piece of it, at a price.

This, imo, is the essential problem of the human condition, irrespective of the political model thru which its projected. The apparently basic drive to turn everything, including discourse itself, into a CLAIM and then using that to drive an EXCHANGE b/w parties has seemingly infected every aspect of society.

Argueably THE CLAIM and THE EXCHANGE are the very essence of society (it claims all of us as cogs in its machine and we claim it as dependent on ourselves) and thus cannot be overcome without threatening the beast.

Squabbling over whose claim to a 'better' political system is best or has greater utility or merit is very ironic, in a palbably deluded way, bereft of any real degree of self awarness.

"Human nature has it that is all about POWER everything else flows from that. One could argue that most ‘ism’s’ are about power the search for it, the gaining of and maintenance of it once gained.
The tragedy is that what ever high ideals that ‘isms’ start power will corrupt it."

I think your explanation is very close, Examinator.

Most decent and successful human activities start out honestly, naturally and fairly sedately. After a while, once a majority of people start to see they're a success - "Success has many fathers but failure's an orphan" - a lot of baggage starts to accrete around the original idea until the weight of the baggage starts to throw the original idea off course.

Then, almost magically, the activity evolves to an "ism" as if giving a warning to decent people that the one-sided shonks are dominating. For example, I suspect that "capitalism" was not widely known, if at all, by that name when Adam Smith was around.

"Why capitalism is not the answer"

Easy. You asked the wrong question.

If the question was "what is the perfect social structure?" then capitalism isn't the answer, but then what is? God knows socialism, fascism, and communism have all proved to be miserable failures.

The question is why?

Motivation is the main reason. If everyone was caring and sharing, and delighted in working for the common good, then socialism would be the perfect formula.

However, most work for themselves and pay taxes grudgingly.

So capitalism is an imperfect system for an imperfect society.

In the meanwilst Liz Ross and other well meaning dreamers will continue to blow hot air.

Certainly an example of unbridled capitalism is what is wrong with the business world today.

A good thing gone wrong as certainly could happen with too much de-regulation.

As with Maynard Keyne's warning near the end of WW2, that the growing mental elation coupled with the wish to return again to the Roaring Twenties - Keynes giving it simply a warning, with a new term, casino capitalism.

Though Keynes died soon after, we certainly stayed under his spell till the late 1970s, when it was realised that the Keynesian centralised business watchkeeper role, was not allowing enough multi-billionaires in our world - even though the steadiness had lifted both Japan and West Germany well away from despair

So why our money handlers forgot Keynes and grew so reckless, goodness knows

YET AS THE ABOVE IS JUST SIMPLE BUSINESS PHILOSOPHY< GUESS IT MEANS NOTHING TO OUR MONEY MINDED MODERNEERS?
handled

Democritus,

Even the question "what is the perfect social structure?" would be a wrong question: it assumes that a social structure can be perfect.

While we obviously need some minimal social structure so that we don't step on each other's tows, a perfect society is not the answer!

"Socialism" is not just an economic system - it is a way of life that places social structure above all else. Besides the common-term referring to communist-style socialism, there is also the infamous "national socialism", as well as "capital-socialism" (as in China, for example), "religious-socialism" and probably others.

We all have aspirations for life, that often involve society to some degree or another, but we must remember that society is only a means for our happiness and fulfillment, not an end by itself.

We all also have existential fears, facing our inevitable death and the uncertainty of what lies beyond it. We have various ways of dealing with those fears, and socialists tend to avoid facing it by gathering and talking-talking-talking, having long meetings upon meetings, conferences upon conferences, coordinating, coordinating, coordinating, huddling together as if the finite sum of finite people has better prospects of standing the infinite.

Once we undestand, Democritus, that this is why they blow so much hot air, we can have more compassion for socialists.