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The Forum > Article Comments > Malcolm Turnbull: the very imperfect Catholic > Comments

Malcolm Turnbull: the very imperfect Catholic : Comments

By Max Wallace, published 24/11/2008

How does a Catholic politician reconcile his beliefs with his faith.

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Frankly, this is a deeply cynical article and not worthy of publication in OLO.
Posted by Senior Victorian, Monday, 24 November 2008 9:58:57 AM
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Here is a securalist - he has made a religion of it - asking how a politician reconciles his beliefs with his politics!

Simply amazing.
Posted by Mr. Right, Monday, 24 November 2008 10:23:30 AM
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Turnbull's private beliefs are his own business, and would only be of concern if they interfered with his decisions as a politician.

Clearly they do not.

Apparently he is capable of reconciling in his own head private beliefs and public obligations - something which appears to be beyond Max Wallace.
Posted by jpw2040, Monday, 24 November 2008 10:28:27 AM
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There's a reason religion doesn't figure prominently in Australian politics. It's mired in contradiction and doesn't lend itself well to scrutiny.

Anyway, what christian - or buddhist, muslim, hindu etc - isn't perfect?
Posted by bennie, Monday, 24 November 2008 10:46:26 AM
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Ah, pity us poor Christians. We have only two choices in life -
perfection, or
hypocrisy.

Its not easy being a person of faith nowadays.

Can't we just be flawed individuals, trying to be better and hoping for reconciliation with our God without being criticised?
Posted by J S Mill, Monday, 24 November 2008 11:57:30 AM
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Malcolm Turnbull a very well educated intelligent lawyer. Also an influential politician with all the facets that term involves? A man whom one could perhaps say makes every post a winner & very clearly does his homework. A man of many talents with perhaps fame as his spur. His religion is his own affair provided he does not force his personal religious views on his fellow citizens, or, more importantly, does not let his religion influence his political view point. Quite possibly the Australian Catholic Church needs converts such as Malcolm Turnbull who, unlike Marcel White, have the religious broad mindness & courage to question some questionable aspects of Roman Catholic religious thought.
Posted by Jack from Bicton, Monday, 24 November 2008 1:09:08 PM
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Crumbs - those core beliefs look really silly when you see them set out like that. Its a close thing between the Adam and Eve and Satan one and the needing to be anointed to see Jesus. I'm glad I had a 'Christian' upbringing because its an important part of my cultural heritage, but actually believing that stuff - pfff!

I wonder what Malcolm Turnbull actually believes - apart from abortion being a woman's choice?
Posted by Candide, Monday, 24 November 2008 2:32:02 PM
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There seems to be an underyling assumption that the Catholic Church is monolithic.

That is not so – ossified yes, in the bone-headed antediluvial attitude of the Bishop of Rome, certainly.

The women of Italy, a most-Catholic nation, with their total fertility rate of 1.3, are not conforming to the Pope’s dictatorial pronouncements. There are also many others who have no intention of leaving the Catholic Church, but are intent on bringing its social dictates into conformity with civilized society.

For an appreciation of the extent of such disparity, it is worth reading Paul Collins’ books such as:
From Inquisition to Freedom; God’s New Man; Upon This Rock – The Popes and their Changing Role.
The Catholic Church is not likely to go away in a hurry. If Turnbull -for all his many faults can, by entering its fold,improve its record of civilized behavior – then the world will be a much better place.
Posted by colinsett, Monday, 24 November 2008 2:44:07 PM
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Malcolm Turnbull's religious belief's will not
have any affect on his career as a politician.

Because he is very adept at 'polspeak.'

'polspeak,' as Dennis Pryor in his booklet,
"Political Pryorities," explains is:

"The verbose, hypocritical, mendacious
and ambiguous language of politicians and
their hangers-on. Its fundamental method is
to express everything so vaguely and densely that
polspeakers can extricate themselves from
difficulties by claiming not to have said what they
did in fact say:

Example: A Minister is about to make an unpopular
decision and will accordingly leave the
announcement to a public servant (Ministers
annouce only good news themselves).

A journalist, getting wind of this, asks the
Minister if it is true. The polspeak answer is:

"The decision-making process with regard to this
matter is currently in place. It would be improper for
me at this point in time to pre-empt the eventual
outcome as the result of community consultations, one
way or another, of that ongoing decision and
consultative process..."

I think you get the picture
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 November 2008 3:48:34 PM
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Max, your ill-informed comments on Catholic teaching are probably such as mine might be of your core beliefs as a Secularist.
Posted by P.McC, Monday, 24 November 2008 4:22:09 PM
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Malcolm Turnbull to date has not espoused catholic doctrine, though one must ask, does he go to confession!
Posted by Kipp, Monday, 24 November 2008 5:29:59 PM
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The article actually omitted two of the central doctrines of Catholicism:

# Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is "holy, universal and apostolic"
# Apostolic succession is key in the faith, saying that the pope and bishops have varying degrees of authority from Jesus.

(http://www.allaboutreligion.org/roman-catholic-doctrine-faq.htm)

Now since nobody with any common sense could mistake the utterances of the Pope and his cardinals for revelations from a benevolent omnipotent God, and since nobody with any self-respect (and we surely agree that Turnbull has THAT) would blindly allow an elderly reclusive celibate misogynist to run their lives, I take it that Turnbull has very rightly decided that those particular tenets of Catholic doctrine are optional.

But they're not.

QED.
Posted by Jon J, Monday, 24 November 2008 6:27:05 PM
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Lets hope Malcolm Turnbull keeps his Catholic religion out of politics, unfortunately most do no, most Catholics do not believe in Voluntary Euthanasia, I wonder whether he would agree or not on this subject.
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 24 November 2008 8:09:29 PM
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A Catholic wedding is a recognition of past culture not a contract to abide by the dogmatic bigotry of the catholic church.

Accusing MT of hypocrisy when the catholic church has a ban on condoms in countries ravaged by HIV is a little rich.

That the catholic church is good for pomp and ceremony and zip all else is evident in that virtually no one follows the catholic prohibition on contraception or chasity, and the churches are far from full.

MT good on you for not letting a bunch of pompous gits in dresses tell you how to think.
Posted by Democritus, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:28:28 PM
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From QED, the Pope & Bishops have varying degrees of authority from Jesus, like QED, I have never ever heard of such rubbish, when does the so called Jesus talk to them, in the toilet, it is no wonder the world is in such a mess, President Bush talks to his make believe God and what a mess he has made of everything, may have been better talking to the so called Devil, more in line with all his stuff ups, the executed in Bali, 72 virgins waiting, and other stupid religions with more stupidity, how can people believe in all this crap. A man like Turnbull with some question marks hanging over him on his way to fame should know better than get mixed up with a very much right wing religion.
Posted by Ojnab, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 7:19:58 PM
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Malcolm Turnbull was looking at the apparent numbers and not the Christians at the Australian Christian Lobby, when he said what he did regarding the alleged right to abortion.
As a Catholic I find his stances mixed in with his stated beleif in the Catholic Faith to be the real contradiction.
Malcolm's public statements on abortion cannot be reconciled in any way, shape or form with the teachings of Christ and His One True Church.
Christ Jesus is the very embodiment/enfleshment/incarnation of holiness and is not party to a lie. Only human beigs lie when they make claims to belief in Christ and His teachings yet go on to publicly deny the same.
Posted by Webby, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 7:23:45 PM
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Your question, how does he reconcile Catholicism with being a politician is answered quite simple.

Through hypocrisy of course. In both roles you preach one thing and do another. Malcolm is expert at that as is his little mate Abbott.

Conscience matters not, even if he had one.
Posted by RobbyH, Wednesday, 26 November 2008 5:20:50 AM
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Whilst the majority of people in the division of Wentworth will no doubt be happy that Malcolm Turnbull has no plans to put his newly embraced Catholic faith into action, I suspect those Catholics who take their faith seriously may withhold their votes from the Liberal Party until this fraud has been deposed. Better to be a non-Catholic than a pretend Catholic.
Posted by Catholicjoe, Thursday, 27 November 2008 1:16:50 PM
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Hello Catholicjoe,
I agree with most of your sentiments except for the voting Liberal party bit.
Even if Turnbulla nd Aboot were consistent and true to the Catholic faith on those moral issues, they would need to give satisfaction to me in regards to industrial relations and pro worker issues. These things no Liberal will ever give.
As for the ALP, it is just another Liberal Partyu. I stopped voting for it 10 years ago. I now vote DLP in the Senate at Federal elections.

We need a better labor type party in this country that is BOTH pro life and pro worker.
Posted by Webby, Thursday, 27 November 2008 4:00:10 PM
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A child could have Googled a better precis of catholic beliefs. But Max Wallace never intended to write a scholarly article. His polemic has two themes: (1) fair dinkum catholics are too wacky/dogmatic to be decent politicians; (2) MT is not fair dinkum, as he just converted to snare the catholic vote, so he’s OK. I would argue that most people (even those saintly secularists) have personal values or beliefs which influence their thoughts and actions. It only becomes a problem when they close their minds to other ideas or force their beliefs on others. Some catholics are guilty of this, but they are not the only ones. Yes, Max, I’m looking at you. I suggest you submit future articles to the tabloids if you intend to persist with such poorly researched innuendo.
Posted by Scholar, Tuesday, 2 December 2008 10:53:58 AM
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