It is undoubtedly tragic and may well represent a failure of the system if genuine refugees are sent back into danger. The same can be said if innocent people are wrongly convicted of serious crimes and sent to prison, where they also may be injured or killed by other prisoners. Huff, Ratner & Sagarin in "Convicted, but Innocent" (1996), have found that at least 0.5% of convictions for serious crimes in the US are wrongful. Evan Whitton in "Cartel" (1998) has estimated 1% for Australia. However, no one is proposing that all the prisons be closed down and the prisoners released to avoid this, because even more innocent people would suffer and die.

Similarly, if we provide open borders for anyone claiming to be a refugee, from the experience of various European countries, such large numbers would arrive that we would be in danger of making Australia as poor, populous, and environmentally degraded as the countries people are risking their lives to escape, quite apart from the potential for ethnic and religious conflict, to the ultimate benefit of no one. At least to date, the real problem in developed countries has not been genuine refugees, but economic migrants who claim asylum under false pretences and are very difficult to deport, even if their claims are rejected. From the British Home Office figures (see Briefing Paper 9.14 from Migration Watch UK)

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/

499,000 asylum claims were made in the 1997-2004 period, not counting dependants. 23% were found to be genuine, including after appeal. Failed asylum seekers only had a 19% chance of being deported. Germany got 438,000 asylum claims in 1992 alone, according to the Parliamentary Library paper franklin cited. The UN High Commission for Refugees has admitted that by the early 1990s, the vast majority of asylum seekers in developed countries were economic migrants. See

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/cib/1999-2000/2000cib13.htm

You refugee advocates would serve your cause better if you discussed reforming the 1951 Refugee Convention to deal with the serious objections franklin raised, rather than just asserting that it can't happen here or calling people "heartless bastards".

Col Rouge,

You too mate.

I did have a quick look at Fractelle's rant against us. Not one to bother about opinions our Fractelle. A quick trip from the sandpit where they amuse each other with home-spun topics - just to give us a serve. I believe she's a bit of a star over there. She should stay there.

I don't think we need to waste our posting allocations on the 3 girls Or is it 4. I think Spikey has a claim to womanhood. I got a spray the other day for asuming that she was a man They don't like us, we don't like them. End of story.

I must say, though, that they do conduct themselves better than you-know-who.

Cheers

Col & M Right

Many have attempted to explain to you the difference between 'refugee' and 'illegal alien' - you still deliberately choose to misunderstand in order to prop up the now defunct Howard "Pacific Solution".

I have worked for over ten years with immigrants who arrived in Australia either by plane or boat. No-one who is sufficiently cashed-up would willingly choose to arrive by leaky substandard boat, yet you persist in promoting this fantasy despite the best efforts of others to explain to you that the majority of potentially criminal types arrive safely by plane.

That you continue to deride, insult and avoid questions to which you cannot answer unless you admit to being racist, simply confirms my point that you seek to deflect true debate by ad hominem attacks as you have demonstrated in your posts above.

No-one is suggesting open slather permission to any who arrive on our shores, what we do expect is that people are treated in a humane manner while their claims are being processed. This point appears to be lost on you both. Hence descriptions of being heartless.

I also agree that consideration must be given to the number of people our country can reasonably support. At the moment with our wasteful, nonsustainable lifestyles, this would not be very many. Therefore, we need to consider not only how we aid genuine refugees but how we treat this evironment that is Australia. It is a massive problem, it won't be solved by any magic bullet, nor will it be solved by arrogance or inability to communicate.

That people, who were genuine refugees in fear for their lives, were returned to their country of origin and subsequently killed is appalling. That we allowed our leaders to permit these tragedies is shameful.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rejected-refugees-sent-home-to-die/2006/08/07/1154802823160.html

That you wilfully ignore reports such as the one above and resort to telling people to "shut their big mouths" or ridicule them reveals you as intolerant, deliberately ignorant and a waste of my valuable time. However, to remain silent is just as reprehensible as your misanthropic posts, hence my response today.

The deaths of failed asylum seekers returned to their home countries can be attributed to various causes and need not necessarily be connected to their failed claims for refugee status. This is perhaps illustrated by the recent case of Akram Almasri.

Akram Al Masri arrived in Australia unlawfully (that is without a visa) from Indonesia as a secondary movement asylum seeker in 2001 and was detained in the Woomera Detention Centre while his case for a protection visa was examined. His application was refused by the Refugee Review Tribunal on 5 December 2001 and he then requested to return to Gaza and was eventually sent back there in September 2002. In July 2008 al Masri was shot dead in the Gaza strip.

Immediately the news broke on al Masri’s death it was automatically attributed by refugee advocates as resulting from his being denied refugee status. The director of the Edmund Rice Centre, Phil Glendenning, said that said Mr Al Masri's death was a tragedy and that there were many other refugees who were in a similar situation to Mr Al Masri.

Jamal Daoud, a spokesman for the Social Justice Network, said the Howard government had blood on its hands. "The previous Australian government is responsible for another terrible crime by forcing refugees to be sent back to Gaza when they knew the situation there," he said.

Note the emotive comments, but what were the actual facts of the case.

"IT BEGAN with a mango three years ago. A member of Gaza’s powerful Masri clan had stopped to buy fruit at a roadside stall in 2005, but the vendor did not have enough small change to break his 20 shekel note - equal to $5. The Masri man pulled a gun and killed the vendor, who was a member of the Abu Taha clan. By the end of last year, the ensuing feud had claimed the lives of 29 people - 10 from neither clan. Sixty had been wounded and homes and businesses on both sides had been torched."

Commentary on the al Masri case can be found at:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/easier_to_blame_howard#38262

"people smuggling and people attempting to enter Australia is on the rise since Ruddy Labor overturned our border protection"

He did WHAT? You better call a television station and break the news because the entire news media missed that one.

Well said Fractelle. Don't expect a change in tone though. None so blind...

Mr. Right: << My ‘new’ new start is: no more engaging with other posters for me >>

Like his "final" comment, one wishes that miserable old Leigh would do what he says he's going to do.

<< his long term obsession with me. He must hang onto my every word >>

In your dreams. No, it was obvious that you'd just changed your alias - the hateful ideas and waspish prose were identical. Anyway, after letting you know I was aware of your failed ploy I've pretty well left you alone, except in threads like this where your comments are more egregiously offensive than usual. If anything, "Mr Right" appears to be even unhappier and nastier than old Leigh was.

And Leigh - CJ Morgan is my real name, under which I'm well known in my community and under which I conduct business and vote. I live in Queensland and I'm a member of the Greens, so I'm not hard to track down if you have half a brain. Several friends and acquaintances have done just that in responding to comments I make here.

My point is that, unlike you and the odious Col Rouge, I stand by the ideas and values that I express here in real life. I bet you and Col wouldn't say boo to a goose if you could be held accountable for what you spew out here.