You are spot on Mil-Observer, it is always in war that the plebs face the gun slaughter and the hierarchy like Packer sit back and watch them get killed, they then lay wreaths at monuments on their behalf, how brave they were,they say, they died for their country, it is time the hierarchy went and got killed then all the plebs could lay wreaths on their behalf, if only

Daisym “Lest there be any doubt, I have stated two beliefs. First, is that wars will occur, irrespective of governmental structure. Second, is that capitalism fosters greater productivity than does socialism.”

Please consider my last paragraph “The reason why the capitalists might seem to spend more is because the economic system of productivity and wealth creation is better managed and ACHIEVES MORE, than the stagnant and feeble machinations of socialists and socialism (by any name and at any time)”

We are making similar observations of the merits of capitalism to the deficiencies of socialism.

We come back to the central agenda, WAR and different political systems.

Anyone who believes War is the exclusive product of “Capitalism” should go back into history to the time of the Divine Right of Kings in the days before modern Capitalism, libertarianism or socialism.

There was plenty of wars going on then, Goths and Huns against Romans, Normans invading Anglo-Saxon England etc.

The Church of Rome acted as some sort of referee between different European principalities but with decisions which could be bought, it fell into the state of corruption which it still suffers today.

If there was never any “capitalism”, I seriously doubt whether a single war would have been averted.

I contend therefore, Passants entire theory is based on an idealized bias which is blindly intent on denying the merits of libertarian capitalism because those who lack the faith in the quality of their own decisions prefer to delegate such independence to a higher authority be it a religious dogma or a political dogma.

They just don’t get how others, with courage and faith in the merit of their personal decisions, prefer to follow and benefit from a better quality of life offered from a libertarian capitalist philosophy.

But we see here how anyone who dares challenge “socialist orthodoxy” is treated by the blind disciples of socialism.

Daisym asks if I believe that capitalism causes wars. Well sweetheart my family were mercenaries for the King of Sweden in 1702, fought at the Battle of Culloden in 1746 - a little bit before the advent of capitalism. I am disturbed by headlines that say the relatives of HMAS Sydney can at last get closure. I would suggest that people who haven't put the events of 1939 behind them and moved on have a psychological problem. The cult of glorifying war dead 60 years after the battle is not healthy - its good way to fan ethnic hatreds.

productivity is caused by ..... I was just elucidating the definition of productivity. In fact socialist states are often less productive than capitalist states

Billie wrote, "In fact socialist states are often less productive than capitalist states."

In many ways the 'socialist' states, for all their serious flaws, were more productive that capitalist states.

Sheila Newman, editor of "The Final Energy Crisis (2nd edition)" (2008)(1) told me how exploration for petroleum and other natural resources was vastly more efficient in the former socialist counties than in the capitalist countries. This was because all those searching for resources were working for one employer so they could poll their knowledge and because the perverse incentives to exaggerate the worth of a find did not exist.

I take the view that little real wealth has been created since the beginning of industrialised society.

What we had, instead was the unsustainable liquidation of humankind's natural capital to create all the artifacts, food, buildings and other infrastructure necessary to sustain our society.

This can only be sustained for a few more decades at the very most at our current rate of consumption and a few centuries at most in totality before we have to revert to pre-industrialised, or even pre-agricultural forms of society.

The claimed superior economic performances of capitalist societies, to the extent that they were real, simply correlated to a greater rate of destruction of natural capital.

Our greatest challenge is to, as fast as possible, reduce our consumption of non-renewable fossil fuels, metals and soil, other natural capital so that future generations may be able to enjoy some of the technological benefits of industrial society or, if not that, at least inherit an ecology that can sustain harmonious societies with fulfilling cultures.

It is obvious that our current rapacious globalised 'free market' system is incapable of doing that.

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1. Pluto Press, RRP AU$44.95 see also http://candobetter.org/TFEC

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In regard to billie's point on focusing on the past:

I acknowledge that I have a fascination with past conflicts, particularly the Second World War, and I would also acknowledge that it is possible to be too focused on the past at the expense of the present and future.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that even after all these years, the proper significance of that conflict has not been fully grasped, not only by many mainstream historians, but also by the left.

Also, I think it is well worth our while to contemplate just how our forefathers, who fought in the belief (whether justified or not) that they were defending our freedom, would regard the outrages that are committed against democracy almost every of the week by our political misleaders on behalf of their corporate masters.

These include:

* the enforced amalgamations of local councils in Queensland in 2007 by Beattie and Bligh;
* the undemocratic laws which allow state Governments in the pockets of developers to over-ride community wishes to maintain bushland open spaces and less hectic lifestyle
* high immigration against community wishes to suit the selfish sectional interests of land speculators, property developers and cheapskate employers.
* the privatisation of publicly owned assets, always in defiance of overwhelming public opposition
* imposition of privately owned tollways, always against the pubic will
* failure to adopt the measures necessary to prevent environmental catastrophe such as the threatened collapse of the Murray Darling system (http://www.fairwateruse.com.au)
* plans to censor the Internet through mandatory filtering with a secret list of sites our government deems 'unwanted' (http://nocleanfeed.com).

In all probability, those who fought in those past conflicts would be even more appalled with our political rulers than many born since then.

Col Rouge:

Bravo. I believe you and I share similar beliefs. I appreciate your ability to set them to writing so well.

billie:

Try harder to recognize that people must maintain their sense of history. History helps us identify who we are and where we came from. History helps guide future generations toward greater things. That's why much of our children's education is devoted to the subject. You don't have to be proud of every thing done in the past, but I know you can find much pride in many things that we as a people have done or have accomplished. I believe that, from time to time, it is very healthy to observe, celebrate, and commemorate the people from which we came. In so doing, we honor them. And in a way, we honor ourselves and future generations. To my way of thinking, this (along with religion) helps us come to grips with our sense of mortality. It helps strengthen the bonds of our society. Because we share and celebrate a common past, it helps keep us united as we work for a better future. Don't be too quick to dismiss all aspects one's heritage. Like it or not, you and I are part of it.