alchemist, you beat me to it.

Noos:

"Whether the war was justifed or not, it's too late to bail. We can't leave now and allow civil war to ensue.'

As oppossed to the peaceful Utopia that flourishes there now?

Maybe the pro war people are right, maybe if we leave Iraq will become a base for radical terrorism, frankly I think that the war has created a 'damned if we do, damned if we dont situation'. I might even support staying there were it not for Bush's statements on the issue.
We should never give that maniac any more credibility or support, he'll be the death of all of us unless some radical shift happens.

On that basis I say we should get out quick, at least save some of our lives that would be sacrificed for naught anyway.

We never learn. We should listen to our WW1 diggers. They have always told us that war is a complete and utter waste - and men are sacrificed for the powers that be, not for 'glory' or their country.
(Maybe, ww2 was an exception,but there are plenty of examples of wasteful and useless slaughter there too).

Every new generation seems to fail to learn the lessons of the past though.

Violence just breeds more violence. Hate just breeds more hate. Its plain as day to see.

I have no doubt that the removal of Hussein from power has resulted in greater freedoms regarding expression of all kinds & has allowed for a reduction of “state racism” in Iraq & surrounds. In its present fractured political climate, no one domestic organisation dominates. The dominant role is held by the US & ’UN’ but this is agreed as transitory – even the US knows it cannot occupy Iraq forever.
The question is what plans do the US have for their eventual withdrawl? What do they wish to establish & with whom? The US obviously intend to promote a sympathetic institution to power (for clean, cheap access to oil reserves), but appear to be unable to find their way around the quite tribal & dominantly Moslem nature of Iraq.
My informed guess is that the US will not pull out of the Middle East completely until International oil reserves have become scarce enough to force large scale investment in alternative energy, including the automotive fuel cell. What oil that remains in the middle east will then become irrelevant, & so will the presence of vested interests.
Do not ignore the historically interventionist nature of the US. The United States of America has intervened (covertly or with lies) on average, with the politics of one foreign nation per year for the last fifty years – it has no ‘morals’ regarding the sovereignty of nations other than itself.
The invasion of Iraq was overt, with lies. No power without responsibility, I say

All those that want to pull out of Iraq, have not counted the cost of lives that will occurr to ordinary Iraqi people who want freedom from the repressive religion of Sunni Muslims assisted by Saudi Arabia etc. The war is a religious war against democratic freedoms as found in decadent Western democracies [as they see the West]. You will have to accept a repressive religious totalitarian State in Iraq if the USA pull out. Well perhaps you prefer this! The Muslim agenda is a Muslim State under shari'ah law stretching from Spain to South East Asia includes Australia in this century. Are you flying the white flag of surrender?

Philo, get a grip on yourself. Saudi Arabia is the closet muslim ally of the US in the middle east. All their weaponry is provided by the US, they get preferred treatment in all things they want. They are ruled by one family who are despots in their treatment of others. Their citizens are the majority of terrorist bombers. Why is that Philo, considering you support the US destruction of the people of Iraq and the demolition of other countries economies with their biased, bullying and standover self centered trade agreements.

Sure the muslims have an agenda to islamise the world, but so do you christians. The US is desperately trying to control the world with whatever methods they can, and they class it as democracy, globalisation and free will.

When Saddam was in power, sure he killed and fought wars. But in the last few years the country was stable, had rid itself of it WMD and was a secular state, even though it was controlled by a minor islamic faction. Brutal sure, but then whats the difference between how the US treats its own blacks and poor, nothing. The US just uses other methods. What about the saturation bombing carried out by the US on cities through out Europe during WW2, against the wishes of other allies. They killed more than 160000 people in one raid on Dresden. My uncle was a Lancaster pilot and told me of the indiscriminate bombing practises of the Yanks. How, if they couldn't reach their target, they would find a town and drop their bombs on that, just for the fun of it. Whilst the allied pilots either used secondary targets or dropped their unused loads over the channel and north sea

Philo your religious paranoia and confusion are getting the better of you. Are you another Pentecost, I can understand if you are, flying with the fairies.

As to flying the white flag, just look through history to see what class of people fly the white flag the most and those that advocate it.

Alchemist,
You are a one eyed extremist, you can only see what you want to see. I have never sanctioned indiscriminate bombing, or violence against civillians, which you want to read into my posts.

Christians are not targeting stable open nations with terrorist activities. You portray the secular USA armed forces dressed in their military gear as terrorists. They are identifiable and do not deliberately target civillians with the sanction of their commanders.

Philio (excuse incorrect spelling),

Im sure many would say that prisoners in Abu Grave were terrorised.

Many would also say that the village in the Vietnam War where US soldiers went in and deliberately killed all the civilians were terrorised too. The USA aint entirely perfect...