Thankyou Patrick. I have added some of your first page with a link to our site here at churchrewired.org. It always struck me at Uni when I did my theol degree that marxism and christian theology had an awful lot in common. I found much of my reading up with the dreaded marxists at Flinders dovetailed with the the old testament prophets rather well! It's interesting how much both sides have demonised each other; I took time to think about the wisdom of posting your article! I headed my mirror as Not your father's Marxism; it's not a bad idea to revisit our old learnings sometimes, hey? Andrew Prior - churchrewired.org

Unfortunately Marxism, like religion, has elements of unreasoning faith. Marx’s Lutheran religious training is evident in the Marxist ideas that include the Fall, the millennium and the struggle between Good and Evil.

Primitive communism in an economy of scarcity followed by the class struggle and the apotheosis of a classless society in an economy of plenty is simply a rewriting of the expulsion of humans from the Garden of Eden followed by the trials and suffering of humankind that is ended at the Second Coming of Jesus and the millennium.

Both religion and Marxism give a meaning to history which isn’t there.

The struggle between Good and Evil is replicated in the class struggle with ‘class enemies’ regarded as Evil. About 100,000,000 corpses resulted from the Marxist Crusade against Evil.

In any struggle between humans there are humans on both sides of the barricades.

In Marxist mythology the Fall was the introduction of private property in the primeval Eden.

There was no Fall. Humanity has merely changed through history due to technological developments and availability of resources.

The unreasoning faith of both Marxism and Biblical religion has caused great suffering.

One can hope for skepticism toward the unprovable propositions of both Marxism and religion to replace unreasoning faith. One can hope for skepticism toward any ideology or religion that claims to have a monopoly on truth.

Hegel saw history as a progression toward an apotheosis in the form of the Prussian state. Marx was a follower of Hegel but added the mystical elements cited above to predict the inevitable triumph of communism.

Marxism is a secular ideology which contains many religious elements.

Some Marxists look at the destruction wrought by various Marxist entities and claim that the horrors are because Marxism has not really been tried.

Some Christians look at the destruction wrought by various Christian entities and claim that the horrors are because Christianity has not really been tried.

Philosophies and religions derive their meaning by the actions of their followers.

"But today's Islamophobes, like Hitchens, are not attacking the powerful in our society; they are attacking a persecuted minority..."

Nearly all of the bloodthirsty killings carried out in the name of Allah don't occur in those Western societies where Muslims are a minority -- 'persecuted' or not -- but in societies where Islam already has a stranglehold on justice and administration. What these murderers want is not a 'fair go' but rather the complete obliteration of science, tolerance and reason and its replacement by a Stone Age tribal culture where men are ignorant, women are possessions, and heretics are tortured and killed.

This kind of defensive hatefulness is the natural outcome of any system, political or religious, which gives primacy to a pre-established set of rules over the results of experiment and reason. Because it can't admit that its failure is due to the limitations of its Holy Book, it seeks to find and blame enemies in the outside world. Marxism has failed, like Christianity, through its inability to learn from experience, not its hostility to religion.

<<Defending Muslims is a vital task for socialists today - and one that fully accords with the real Marxist approach to religion.>>

"Vital" ? VITAL?

I'ts also a stupid one. (STUUUUUUPID)

No-one really says it better than the Socialist Alternative itself:)

http://www.sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=727&Itemid=106

Iranian Revolution.

<<some (socialist) groups saw guerrilla struggle as the way to defeat the Shah, while all looked to ALLIANCES with the "progressive bourgeoisie" and the "anti-imperialist" Islamists.

Because the Left didn't look to the working class as the primary agent of revolution, it failed to take the opportunities thrown up by the revolution to grow in influence when the working class played the decisive role in overthrowing the Shah. Fatally, the Left tailed Khomeini, calling him "progressive" and "anti-imperialist" and refused to challenge him or provide an alternative to his leadership.

The Left, and the Iranian people generally, soon paid the price of this stupidity. Once in power, Khomeini set about crushing the continuing working class and minority resistance and transferring power to the clergy. As his strength grew, he began direct crackdowns on the Left, jailing and killing thousands of leftists and worker activists.>>

What the Left simply did not realize, is that unbridled Islamic power, will lead to unbridled application of Islamic principles.

'Kill them (atheists/idolaters) wherever you find them' (in context it is a legitimate quote) (Surah 9:5)

I suppose the left's lesson is "Next time we will kill them first"

DAVID F.. no, I disagree,

<<Some Christians look at the destruction wrought by various Christian entities and claim that the horrors are because Christianity has not really been tried.>>

We look at such things and say they were OUTRIGHT WRONG/EVIL SATANIC!
Based on.....the Bible. (particularly the teaching of the Lord Jesus)

The modern day Marxist has a lot in common with Islam. They both condone violence and have a death culture. Killing the unborn is living proof of that. Anyone that disagrees with their established science (dogma) is a heretic. Global warming has now replaced global cooling. What will be next? The high priests constantly exaggerate the evil done by white males and down play any good though many of them have become rich through capitalism. Catastrophic prophecies are regular announcements to scare every man, woman and child in conforming to their dogmas. They portray an outward morality but brainwash kids into thinking every form of sexual experimentation is normal. Marxism has led to more deaths than all religions and wars put together. Just look at the abortion stats.

Lets look at what "opium" means.
1. It is meant to sedate and immobilise the user.
2. Only authorities are allowed to cultivate and to use it.
3. It eases pain and it creates a sense of dependence.

Yes.I would say that religion is the opiate of the masses. BUT...
Marx had only the thesitic institutions in mind as these were the only organizations in existence at his time. If he were awarew of modern world views on religion i.e god-less religion and secular interpretations of scriptures he would not have believed that.

We are looking out from a different window at a vastly different world view.

I give Marx more credit.

socratease

Only a "skull that would never smile again," to quote the great Polish former Marxist philosopher Leszek Kolakowski, in his reference to communism-socialism, could still with a grin on its face argue and support religious fanaticism in the form of Islam, under the 'venerable' name of Marx, that is pregnant with the monster child of Islamofascism.

http://kotzabasis.com

Themistocles

i fail to see where the article argues for support of Islamic fundamentalism.

Indeed for a good pamphlet on the issue from a marxist perspective, read Chris Harman's "the Prophet and the Proletariat".

The article is making the simple point that Marxists support religious freedom.

I support Islamic groups when they want to set up schools and councils reject them, ostensibly on planning grounds. I support Islamic women who want to wear the hijab, just as I support Christians who want to wear crucifixes around their necks or jews who want to wear the yamulka.

None of this is support for suicide bombers. However let me make the point crystal clear. The major terrorists sit in Washington and London and Canberra.

Fundamentalism is a response to Western and Russian imperialism.

The defeat of the Russians in Afghanistan (with US supported bin Laden prominent in the struggle) was a step forward for humanity. Why? Because Russian imperialism was pushed back into its lair for some time and in this particular case the war and resistance contributed to te emagnificent revolutions against Stalinism. (Stalinism, by the way, is not Marxism, but its opposite - state capitalism).

Passy wrote:

(Stalinism, by the way, is not Marxism, but its opposite - state capitalism).
State capitalism is state ownership of economic entities. State capitalism is not the opposite of Marxism.

Somehow Marxists try to claim that Stalin was not a Marxist. It is like Christians claiming Hitler was not a Christian because they don’t like what he did. Jesus was not a Christian, but Hitler was one.

It would be hard to deny that Marx was a Marxist. In the Communist Manifesto Marx put forth 10 points to be implemented in his vision of society. Points 1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 mandate state capitalism.

From the Manifesto:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

The above points are state capitalism.

Passy,
Like everything in life it's the context that counts. To speak for religious freedom and explicitly include Islam when the latter's doctrines in the present context are interpreted, propagated, and implemented by religious fanatics, not by moderates, is to support indirectly, but just as explicitly, "Islamic fundamentalism".

http://kotzabasis1.com

Religion is opium of the people ?

"I say the media's the cocaine 24 hours of propanganda druggin' my poor brain .....
Pillars of Society (Kev Carmody/Paul Kelly) ..."
www.kevcarmody.com.au/tracks/messages.html

Strangely this excellent song"Pillars of Society" was not covered/redone on the recent compilation of Murrie singer sonwriter Kev Carmody.

Dear David F, Found you again. The only diference Between you and I is the God we chose .I chose the living God .You chose the god of death by your beliefs . The choice has always been Life or Death not Good and evil as you believe . You judge people by the fruit of their life and Hitler did not bare fruit according to life, so he served the god of death . Jesus said come with a child like faith . Simple yet you chose to redicule and complicate his words on faith.

“Marx's ideas on religion have been widely misrepresented and misunderstood.”

That statement represents the extinct (Marx) driveling on about the improvable (Religion).

So who cares?

How anyone can actually fill three pages of writing on the topic is beyond me, I thought about reading them but realised, it would be five minutes of my life which I would never get back, so I went and took a leak instead.

Richie 10 wrote:

Dear David F, Found you again. The only diference Between you and I is the God we chose .I chose the living God .You chose the god of death by your beliefs . The choice has always been Life or Death not Good and evil as you believe . You judge people by the fruit of their life and Hitler did not bare fruit according to life, so he served the god of death . Jesus said come with a child like faith . Simple yet you chose to redicule and complicate his words on faith.

Dear Richie 10,

I don’t choose any God.

There is no choice between life and death for multicelled human beings. All of us die. Multicelled human beings produce one-celled humans in the form of sperm and eggs. Most of them also die. A very few sperm get together with a very few eggs to produce more multicelled humans.

Some multicelled humans prefer to deny death and imagine that they will exist in some form after death. As long as they are harmless and are able to function reasonably well they should be left alone.

There are many differences between us. Another difference is that I prefer to use good grammar although I make an occasional mistake. It is correct grammar to write ‘between you and me’ not ‘between you and I’. When the first person pronoun is an object of a preposition or verb one should use the objective case of the first person. The right word to use is me.

However, you are correct that I do judge people by the fruit of their life. I don’t ridicule Jesus’ words. I question many of them, as I think he was very mistaken and arrogant in some of the words attributed to him. I see no more reason that I should respect Jesus’ words than anybody else’s words. Of course, Jesus may just be a composite figure and may never have said the words attributed to him.

I think an adult having a childlike faith should grow up.

Dear David f , Jesus christ the creator, God the Son , made it very clear that if you didn't accept his offer of salvation that YOU condemn yourself to eternity with the god of this world, there are no fence sitters you are either spending eternity with the good shepherd or with the goat herder with the 2 pronged fork. So old mate if you think you can dodge the issue by not making a decision or through not believing it won't cut it and to make matters worse you have to die to prove your right or I am right. Then it is to late to have a change of heart . There were many eyewitnesses who attested to the fact that Jesus rose from the dead giving further validity to his words . By whose authority do you validate your beliefs and words. I don't have to validate God's word that is his job . But be very careful that you don't have to validate your word for death can come like a thief in the night for none of us know the hour or the day . A good dose of fear of the Living God may be what you need for a wakeup call. I went to the funeral of a school friend of my youngest son last month very sad and unexpected as he was only 23. Bad things happen nobody is exempt.

Dear Richie 10,
Now you are pushing Jesus as boogeyman. If you don’t swallow his mumbo jumbo you’ll be in trouble. Your brand of Christianity is a psychopathic religion that thrives on fear, and you try to spread the fear. That is sickness.

Grow up.

There are no gods.

Just live a good life, be kind, question and follow your reason.

Buddha doesn’t ask you to believe any mumbo jumbo. Fractelle posted these words of Buddha:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

It makes much more sense than a religion relying on primitive fear like yours