Makes me think that indeed *Mr TurnBull* is correct when he says he is somewhat closer to his "role" model than *Mr Wudd* is to his.

Even in Oz it seems that some pollies are all to willing to hitch a ride like a symbiotic parasite onto the relgious control mechanism, but only so far as it suits their purpose.
Aduh!

*Amrozi* has put in I suppose what u wld call a last plee. That is, to be hung and not shot. It has to do with the sanctification. Nothing unusual in that BUT

Careful now ..

A bit of background. There is no social security other than that of the religious groups and therein lies the loyalty of the local group. So, in some parts u have Islam, in others Hindu Adat etc. The commonality is that they will all, I assume, fight fanatically for their own financial security solution and locus of control.

Already here in Bali, the "Hindu" religious collective is insisting that their local religious laws override Indonesian federal law. If pushed, by allowing others that previously were not allowed to buy land (such as Javanese) who will not donate to the Hindu Temples, in the absence of education and or another social security solution, they may fight. These are the same ones who wld knowingly insult the Islamic collective by imposing an unconstitutional, unsanctified death by firing squad.

Perhaps some of the red necks here wld like to come and guard the ex pat community in Bali. Here we are "Bule" (BooLay) white people and the dutch seem to have tainted our reputation as a group for millenia, whether we are euro, ozzie or otherwise.

U c, presently, some say, Australia supports Hindu Bali -> Bang! Bang!

Better not to be seen to be taking a position with one religious group or other within Indo and rather adopt a neutral non-double standard position.

Hold an indicative plebisite within Oz if u must.

Indos generally grin somewhat fatuously when stressed. It is not perculiar to Amrozi et al.

...Adam...

I disagree runner

Many Christians I know are against the death penalty - I am not sure from your post whether you are or not - I assume not since you a committed Christian.

pelican,

I would imagine that opinion is divided as to the death penalty among Christians. If you have more concern for the victims and potential victims of crime you are more likely to be in favour. If you hold to the philosophical dogma that the death penalty is always wrong (thus affirming your belief in absolutes) then you will oppose it. I for one am in favour in extreme circumstances (such as repeat murderers, rapist, child molesters). It is a sad reflection on human nature that sometimes it is better to end a life than to cause untold misery and pain to others. Jesus made this clear when he spoke of those who would cause little ones to sin. I have met a number of people who have raped, murdered and molested children and yet still only ever think of their own evil desires. In some of these cases remorse is non existent just like the Bali bombers.

runner
By your reasoning those who oppose the death penalty are not concerned for victims or potential victims. That is a big reach - and if you think about it sincerely, I am sure you will see that is not the case.

Killing the perpetrator does not change the fact the act has already occurred and does nothing to help the victims. In the case of the Bali bombers, all you are doing is creating martyrs for terrorism and for terrorist leaders (given that Amrosi often mentions his devotion to Bin Laden).

We don't gain anything in our evolution as civilised people by becoming barbaric. Which is what we do when we reduce our values to the lowest act a human can commit.

What if someone is convicted of a crime he did not commit and faced the death penalty only to find out years later he was innocent. Who is the victim then? There are numerous cases of this occuring throughout the world, particularly in the US.

There are certainly many people who are selfish with no thought to the harm or pain they cause others; and many who feel no remorse. I don't know what it is that makes people lack the empathy to care about their fellow human beings. Some serial killers have even been raised in strict religious families others not. There seems to be no pattern to it. Thankfully they are in the minority.

I'm tired of hearing that the flimsy excuse, that executing Amrozi etc will turn them into martyrs.

This is unadulterated NONSENSE. Keeping them alive and allowing them to spread their poisonous message is far more damaging to our cause. The Bali bombers WILL be forgotten when they are dead. Whilst they are still on the news every week, that will not be the case. One of the best recruiting grounds for Islamic terrorists is prisons. Do we really want these men, heroes to the terrorists, being able to help reruit others?

There are already tens of thousands of martyrs to the Islamo-Facist cause and they are not remembered. The execution of the Bali Bombers WILL NOT aid their cause, but it will provide justice for the families of the victims.

They are frightened of dying, make no mistake about that, and have petitioned the courts to stop the executions ot to change the method of execution.

Pelican says >> You cannot be against the death penalty except for 'some exceptions'. It is like saying you are a vegetarian but you still eat fish.

WHAT ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. There has been a special class of crimes, known as capital crimes, which have warranted the death penalty across the ages. It has ALWAYS been the case that the death penalty was applied to certain crimes and not to others.

Your analogy is simply ridiculous. You're saying a person either always support the death penalty for every crime, or they never support it. I wonder Pelican, whether you could tell me under what legal system, ALL crimes were punished by death?

Almost invariably, the death penalty has only been applied in certain circumstances.

These guys planned and carried out the brutal attack that killed hundreds and wounded hundreds more innocent civillians. Indonesian law on this matter is clear. Lets get on with it.

Pelican

'We don't gain anything in our evolution as civilised people by becoming barbaric. Which is what we do when we reduce our values to the lowest act a human can commit.'

You could not possibly support killing the unborn if you truly believe this. A lower act than capital punishment would be to allow a child molester to destroy more lives by burying our head in the sand and sticking to our failed dogmas.