Does religion make people nicer?

http://www.reason.com/news/show/129304.html

Only if you're being watched.

I find this offering from Rod Blaine most fascinating.

>>Oops. Might want to look further afield for a different poster boy for atheism<<

It would appear that the "poster boy for atheism" referred to here is Timothy McVeigh, as illustrated by the Guardian article.

The connections seem to go as follows:

Ponder promotes a view on the importance of personal ethics and responsibility via a quote from W.E.Henley's poem "Inviticus".

According to the Guardian, Timothy McVeigh also used the same poem as his "final statement" to the world.

If we then accept Rod Blaine's implied association between McVeigh and atheism, we complete the cycle...

...quoting Inviticus puts you on the same level as an atheist mass murderer.

There are one or two flaws to this conclusion.

The first is that the logic is screwy.

Hitler liked Wagnerian operas. I like Wagnerian operas. Therefore you must expect me to invade Poland, at any tick of the clock.

The second is not about logic, but about the facts behind the "atheists behave like this" assumption.

Timothy McVeigh was in fact born a Catholic, and was given Catholic rites before his execution. From an interview with Time magazine:

"TIME: Are you religious?

MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.

TIME: Do you believe in God?

MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,109478,00.html

In the light of both the logical structure, and the facts at issue, where does that leave...

>>Oops. Might want to look further afield for a different poster boy for atheism<<

Swinging in the wind.

Well, Pericles,

(1) If you really want to dust off the old "McVeigh was raised Catholic..." line of attack, then by the same token, Richard Dawkins and Phillip Pullman are Anglicans, and Isaac Asimov practised Judaism.

Again - oops.

(2) There's no necessary connection between liking a particular type of music (as music - maybe liking the lyrics is a different matter: see the Rev Charles Manson's admiration of the lyrics of Fr John Lennon's "Helter Skelter") and one's politics. I know devout Christians who can't stand "Christian" music, musically.

There is, however, a very big connection between a poem I select as my "anthem", and my views. You might, for example, admire GK Chesterton's works for their literary craft as poems. I doubt though you would choose one to be read out at your funeral.

(3) Even if we grant that McVeigh was a devout believing Catholic (again) at the time he was executed (yeah, cos, y'know lots of devout believing Catholics would "thanks whatever gods may be", but anyway...for the sake of argument), how does this fit with the idea that the "Invictus" idea of personal responsibility is incompatible with religious beliefs?

Oops!

From a historian's point of view, it seems that none of you have learnt the most important lesson of our democracies.

To never let reason be upset by religous faith.

And please to remember that such philosophy by both Thomas Aqunas and Immanuel Kant still helps to better relationships between our Christians and agnostics.

Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA.

Oliver / bennie,

Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) was a devotee of Atenism (a minor aspect of Ra - the sun god) and his name meant spirit of Aten or such like.

I think he was as much a monopolist as a monotheist, and despite rebranding Egyptian religion into a new dominant brand - centred on himself as much as Aten - his 'more advanced' views on prohibiting idols and his god being transcendental and beyond nature are as eye opening as the monotheistic bent.

Needless to say, he wasn't much liked by his polytheist court who had their market (and power) interfered with.

Still, if I could go back to Egypt's past, then this would be a close second to Ramesses II (the great) - just love the poem Ozymandias by Shelley:

"Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

A great line for all contributors to OLO to bear in mind...

Nice body-swerve, Rod Blaine.

>>If you really want to dust off the old "McVeigh was raised Catholic..." line of attack, then by the same token, Richard Dawkins and Phillip Pullman are Anglicans, and Isaac Asimov practised Judaism.<<

Irrelevant. Where's your admission that McVeigh was not in fact the atheist you claimed him to be. Did you forget?

>>There is, however, a very big connection between a poem I select as my "anthem", and my views.<<

Tripe. By that token, your ambit claim would include the poet too, would it not? Presumably W.E.Henley was also a closet mass murderer, and would have wrought destruction upon Victorian England, but for his tuberculosis.

>>Even if we grant that McVeigh was a devout believing Catholic<<

Oh, please. Read his remarks again. Does that sound devout and believing to you?

>>how does this fit with the idea that the "Invictus" idea of personal responsibility is incompatible with religious beliefs?<<

I'm not quite sure whose idea this is, so cannot comment.

>>Oops. Might want to look further afield for a different poster boy for atheism<<

Swinging in the wind.