“The ancient Greeks who produced it possessed by comparison to us a very poor knowledge of the human body.”
Both abortion and infanticide were common throughout the ancient Greco-Roman world. Plato actively supported it. The only real concerns were that abortion could be used to conceal a woman’s adultery.

“Good evidence suggests babies don't develop consciousness (or awareness of self) till 6-9months after birth.”
Bathos, would that negate personhood up until that point?

“the Hippocratic oath says nothing on abortion.”
Despite the prevalence of abortion and infanticide, the Oath states “I will not give poison to anyone though asked to do so, nor suggest such a plan. Similarly I will not give a pessary to a woman to cause abortion.”

“It is legally considered as a medical procedure that every person has a right to.”
No. Up until this point it has only legally been considered a “right” if it could be shown that continuing the pregnancy would be more harmful for the mother than terminating it.

“but having taken on the patient is obliged to refer” I don’t think there is an obligation- the doctor didn’t know that would be requested beforehand.

“Netjunkie, believe me as a doctor you will be asked to attend to persons who have done things and have got themselves into a medical situation whom you will find abhorrent.”

I know. And personally, I have no problem with that. I would save the life of any person who presented for medical care- who am I to judge them? We have a court system to do that.

“Do no harm? How wonderfully arrogant for any human to presume what is harmful and what is not for another autonomous human being.”

Both foetuses and women are living homo sapiens/human beings. The question here is personhood. I respect that you may not believe foetuses to be persons (and therefore your ONLY consideration is for the autonomous mother), but I do. So, as a doctor, my concern is not just for the mother’s health, but also for the foetus’s. In weighing up ethical considerations, I would have to say that the right to autonomy of the mother is not as important as the right to continue existing and not be killed of the foetus.

This bill opens up abortions for any reason whatsoever until 24 wks. Born 21 wk old foetuses have survived. Therefore I would say there’s not much of a basis to say 21 wk old foetuses are not persons- they are simply persons who happen to be living inside of a uterus as opposed to outside of one. But this bill will force me to be a part of the process that will end his or her life, even if both mother and foetus are perfectly healthy.

“The termination of a pregnancy is the business between a pregnant woman and HER conscience. She is the one who has to live with the consequences, one way or another.”

This reminds me of the prolife campaigner who survived a saline abortion, which has left her disabled with cerebral palsy. Although her speaking engagements are often mediated by heavily religious language, she did say something that I think would stick out for anyone: “where were my rights, when they were trying to burn me with salt?”

I also think this was quite a good opinion piece on the issue of conscience:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/denying-people-right-to-conscience-akin-to-fascism-20080925-4o2l.html?page=1

Netjunkie,

Thank you for affirming that "both foetuses and women are living homo sapiens/human beings." Yet "logic's" post on this forum wants us to believe that "we do not know, and probably never will, if a foetus has the same life status as a born human being."

I'm not a medico but a family therapist. I do read the research. In Landrum Shettles M.D.'s book, Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth 1983, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, he provides the medical/biological evidence of when human life begins:

• Dr. Alan Guttmacher, former leader of Planned Parenthood in the USA, said of the fertilised egg as far back as 1947 that it is "the new baby which is created at this exact moment." In 1961 he wrote that when "fertilization, then has taken place; a baby has been conceived."

• Dr. Richard V. Jaynes declared in Ob. Gyn. News, 15 September 1981, "To say that the beginning of human life cannot be determined scientifically is . . . utterly ridiculous."

• Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris: "When does life begin? I'll try to give the most precise answer to that question actually available to science. . . . Life has a very long history, but each individual has a very neat beginning, the moment of conception. . . . To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being, conception to old age, is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence." [This is from evidence provided in testimony during the United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee hearings on "when life begins", 1981.]

Other medical professionals provided similar evidence at the 1981 hearings.

Since this is true, with this biological evidence to confirm that human life is continuous from conception to old age, we need to acknowledge that the change has taken place in society and not in the biological evidence.

Human life does not begin at conception. Human life continues. Sperm are living humanity as are eggs. Human life consists of alternate generations. 100% of the multicelled generation die. Most of the single-celled generation die except for a few which join with other single cells to form new individuals not new life. If we grant these fertilized eggs equal status to live multicelled creatures it is also logical to grant the sperm and eggs special status. They are just as much alive. A man who masturbates is a mass murderer. A woman who allows herself to menstruate and flush eggs away without fertilization has wasted life. She has allowed life to be thrown away. One must not confine our condemnation to abortionists. One must get after male masturbators and those women who have allowed their precious eggs to be wasted without fertilization. After all, human life is human life. It is all sacred.

Are you one of the criminals?

Davidf,

"Human life does not begin at conception. Human life continues. Sperm are living humanity as are eggs."

That may be your opinion but it is not based on the scientific evidence from biology.

Dear Ozpen,

My evidence is from biology. Sperm and eggs are living human matter. Fertilized eggs are a continuation not a beginning of life. Animate matter comes from animate matter.