K£vin

I suppose I would agree, I just do not know where is the quote from, and how is it related to what I have been saying on this thread.

I cannot debate theology in the manner of Relda, Davidf, George or Sells. But I have enough of a christian background to know that I find my truth within myself. I see evidence of altruism in the behaviour of many different people around me and also in the animal-kingdom. Looking after one another simply makes good sense. Darwin's theory has been perverted by those who seek power - survival of the fittest does not mean the strongest, or most powerful. It means survival of those who are adaptable to their environment - that doesn't have to mean dominance.

Dan S claims: "This is not to be interpreted as me saying that atheists are immoral. However, I am yet to be convinced of their basis for moral conduct."

I am deeply concerned.

I, my family, most of my friends and neighbours are not at all religious, we behave with great empathy and compassion for each other - our desire to do so is from our natures, not from a book. If what Dan S says it true, we lack a moral-basis, where is the resultant bad behaviour? Do religious people commit less crime than non-religious? If so, which religion is the most 'moral' (commits the less crime)? By use of the word 'crime' I do not necessarily mean 'sin'. But actions which cause harm to others.

Is the highest morality not eating animal flesh?

Or is it in prostrating oneself in prayer?

Or helping a stranger?

Perhaps, Sellick should make as thorough study of the non-Abrahamic religions (he is so well-versed in Christian, could he not apply his considerable intellect to others, such as Buddhism?). He may find that there is as much moral guidance in other religions or philosophies as there is in his perception of the "christian truth" - whatever that is.

For myself, living a full and peaceful life is surely the best to which we can all aspire.

Live and let live.

And enough of this self-righteous pissing competition.

It is unseemly in and makes a mockery of those who claim to hold such high moral convictions.

Fractelle
I seem to remember answering a similar question in this thread: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7816#122733

Peter

Reckon the discussive material in the massive amount of the above threads should be preserved for posterity, but as a former farm lad trying to sort out the way we should be or behave, could say that dinkum Christianity and Hellenistic reasoning seem certainly meant for each other.

However, it is so sad that both contain the false intellectual pride of refusing forgiveness or sharing the blame as Maynard Keynes expressed at the Treaty of Versailles, and is said to have given a similar warning when he died not long before the end of WW2.

It could be well to ask if Global Warming or nuclear militarism means that neither young nor old really have not much time left, surely our world with increasing nuclear

Fractelle. Humane & sensible. Thanks!

K£vin, my quote, and I agree.

George, the Paris that Lustiger left to escape the Nazis was a culture denigrating Jews.

>>> Lustiger’s remark, “For me, the vocation of Israel is bringing light to the goyim. That is my hope, and I believe that Christianity is the means for achieving it.”, I find insulting.<<

>>This is a personal belief and as such cannot be insulting to anybody. Of course, one can have a different idea of how to bring (or not bring) this light to the goyim.

Jews do not regard their light as being found in another religion. It remains insulting.

>> He saw his conversion as a continuation of his Jewishness…. Most of those I know take a tolerant attitude towards conversions.

I am tolerant to conversion, but Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism. Christianity has elements of Judaism in it but contradicts Judaism and is therefore not a continuation.

>> “Lustiger's book is a stimulating theological read related to Christianity's understanding of the Election of Israel….

Lustiger expounded on the Chosen People nonsense. “Gott mit uns” is a variant. The word in a tribal language for themselves such as Inuit generally translates as ‘the people.’ The Chosen People is an equivalent out-dated Jewish myth.

The idea of a God who picks out a set of human beings and chooses them is like “Black is beautiful”. It raises the self-esteem of a people who feel beset by much more powerful groups.

I don’t think many current Jews take the idea seriously. The Chosen People idea means that the rest of humanity is not chosen. If there is a God he is for all and is not restricted to those who accept a particular religious belief.

One lesson that most Jews have learned from the Holocaust is we should live together in peace on this planet. To set up any group as favoured above others whether Jews, Christians, Aryans is a recipe for conflict and oppression.

Lustiger transferred a bad Jewish idea to Christianity. It remains a bad idea

Fractelle,
>>to know that I find my truth within myself<<

“Noli foras ire, in te ipsum redi: in interior homine habitat veritas” [Do not go afar: seek within thyself. Truth resides inside of man.] (Augustine)

“Truth descends only on him who tries for it, who yearns for it, who carries within himself, pre-formed, a mental space where the Truth may eventually lodge ... The Christian God is apparently transcendent to the world, but immanent in the “depth of the soul.” (Ortega y Gasset)

So perhaps - just perhaps, please do not get too excited about it - “the Truth” (that nobody really knows much about but without which human existence would not make much sense to many of us), and “your truth” are not that far apart.

As I wrote before, this Truth can only be understood as the proverbial “elephant“, and your truth (or my truth, or that of a Buddhist monk, etc.) just as what one of the “six blind men” can “see”, or rather feel.

david f,
>>Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism.<<
Right or wrong, I never claimed Lustiger said this. Please cheque what I wrote. Lustiger spoke of his PERSONAL journey from Judaism to Christianity.

Nevertheless, I have to respect your views on Judaism and Christianity, but you must excuse me if I stop trying to understand them. Luckily I - as well as many other Christians and Jews - do not find convictions sincerely held by people of different religions/world-views “insulting“, even if we strongly disagree with them. So, although I do not have to follow you, I thank you for expressing your sincerely held convictions about Christianity, Judaism, Lustiger etc.