I disagree with you Peter.
I don't think A J was being abusive or ranting.
He is maybe very frustrated with some of the illogical misinformed rubbish he has been reading here but I agree with you that we should keep the discussion as civilized and polite as possible.
I fail at this myself sometimes. I know you will forgive us all 'cause basically you are a nice guy.

Pricillian,
Sells is certainly a ‘nice guy’ and also diametrically opposed the views of Dan, but he has allowed him some room. Rather than force Dan into some sort of hari kari, an intraverted a form of ‘self-honour’, Sells instead has exercised a certain compassion. The reiteration of “nïave, logically flawed and over-simplistic” has been continual and therefore abusive. Once is enough then move on.

AJ Philips,
>> your flawed logic with the so-called (yet non-existent) “influence” that Christianity has on modern science<<

"Faith in the possibility of science, generated antecedently to the development of modern scientific theory, is an unconscious derivative from medieval theology." (A.N. Whitehead in Science and the Modern World).

So instead of Dan you should address your accusation at Whitehead (or many other respected interpreters of history, though obviously not all, e.g. the mentioned above Charles Freeman). Whitehead and Russell differed in their world-views but they never accused each other of “flawed logic” because they both knew what logic was.

david f,
I never accused you of not understanding relativity theory, nor directly of not understanding what mysticism (e.g. Kaballah) and theology (not the same thing) are all about, though I perhaps could have. By the way, “feeling” means having a mystical experience which I have not had either.

There is obviously another thing where we differ: I appreciate people, Jews or Christians like Lustiger, who contribute to a better understanding of the two faiths (yes, here I am talking about faith not race: you cannot change your race by a religious conversion).

I do not want to enter into discussions about the uniquness of Holocaust. In Germany, where I now live, the "Zentralrat der Juden" looks very unfavourably at those who try to explain it away by claiming e.g. that "the Nazis were human, and what happened with them could have happened anywhere". They call it "Relativierung" and I can understand them. Besides, this claim is like playing down Einstein‘s contribution to our understanding of the physical world by saying that if it were not him, somebody else would have had the same ideas, a statement that is not falsifiable.

I don’t pretend to put the most intellectual of the opinions here in the room, but if we’re going to accuse each other of being naïve, and go to the trouble of putting two dots on top of the ‘ï’, could we at least put the ‘ï’ after the ‘a’.

George,

I don't know about the Jewish race. Most are Caucasian, like Hitler. It must be something else. Try Christian culture. It was inevitable that something like this would happen sooner or later. Hitler was one of the later versions.

The Christian culture of anti-semitism, bigotry, fascism and authoritarianism was right up Hitler's alley. They trained him and let him off the chain. That's how he got away with it. Here's a couple of guiding texts.

‘… the Jews who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men … But God’s wrath has come upon them at last.' (1 Thessalonians 2:15)

'You suffered the same persecutions from your own countrymen that they suffered from the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and persecuted us. How displeasing they are to God.' Thessalonians 2:14

And for the person who suggested I bone up on the Palestinian Book of Faery Tales, here's a couple more.

'Women should learn in silence and all humility. I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet. For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the women who was deceived and broke God’s law.' 1 Timothy 3:5

'Rebuke publicly all those who commit sins, so that the rest may be afraid.' 1 Timothy 5:20 That's the recipe for terror.

(The antiscience) 'See to it, that no one enslaves you by means of the worthless deceit of human wisdom, which comes from the teachings handed down by men and from the ruling spirits of the universe, and not from Christ.' Colossians 2:8

Dear Dan,

Enjoyed your comment on naïve.

George wrote:

“you cannot change your race by a religious conversion.”

I agree with that, but I thought we were discussing Jews. I am blond, blue-eyed, have a very light skin and am pretty much like other white people. Velma married to my cousin Lenny is dark-skinned and pretty much like other black people. We are both Jews. We are not a race.

If all Jews became Christians that would end the Jewish people, Hitler would end them in his way. Lustiger in his.

Many Jews have chosen martyrdom rather than depart from the faith. Lustiger did it voluntarily.

I looked up Lustiger on the net and found the following:

‘In an early interview as archbishop, he said: “I was born Jewish, and so I remain, even if that is unacceptable for many. For me, the vocation of Israel is bringing light to the goyim. That is my hope, and I believe that Christianity is the means for achieving it.”
Reactions to his appointment were sharp. A former chief rabbi of Paris, Meyer Jays, told an interviewer that “a Jew becoming a Christian does not take up authentic Judaism, but turns his back to it.”’

I think the first paragraph is arrogant. Christianity is a missionary religion, and he was speaking as a missionary – not a Jew. It is the arrogance of, “I know the truth and will tell you what it is.”

I don’t think Lustiger has contributed to better understanding. There is nothing wrong in changing one’s religion. There is something wrong in wanting to push one’s beliefs on others. There are too many missionaries around.

I prefer the words of the late, great Jimmy Durante, “Why doesn’t everybody leave everybody else the hell alone?”

I agree with Rabbi Jays. Lustiger separates himself from his people and wants to identify with them. Chutzpah!

There is no central authority for Jews. There is nothing like a pope who speaks for all Catholics. The "Zentralrat der Juden" is entitled to its opinion, but no one else is obliged to agree with it.