katie0: << ...now someone else is writing under CJ’s name (where is the real CJ Morgan? Anyone?) >>

Er... hello katie0.

Unlike most people - including you - I contribute here under my real name, and I'm not aware of anyone else on OLO posting under it.

What makes you think someone else has been posting as me?

KatieO. Are you saying that accepting homosexuality is a challenge to democracy? Surely as a christian you divorce your beliefs from politics and outside influence.

Without respect for the diversity in life, we are without respect for our own beliefs.

Oops. That backfired, CJ. I still remember the days when you told me to shut up and go away. I guess that was the evil twin. ;)

"KatieO. Are you saying that accepting homosexuality is a challenge to democracy? Surely as a christian you divorce your beliefs from politics and outside influence."

Kipp: that must have been a speed-read. I'm saying that a democracy has a room for all sorts and that every opinion is equally valid under the rules of a secular democracy.

Notice though, that when Christians feel compelled to vocalise a warning to a society that promotes a lifestyle incompatible with the word of God, there is a deepening suspicion, lack of tolerance and "respect" for our view.

In a true, secular democracy, gay and lesbian rights are not weighted higher than the need for Christians to meet and worship together, even when such worship includes preaching against practicing the gay and lesbian lifestyle.

Kipp, you wrote: "Without respect for the diversity in life, we are without respect for our own beliefs."

I guess you can't help but preach to me Kipp. However, you'll see that I have a great regard for diversity and have carefully considered different beliefs, even those that belong on the bumper of a car. My sticker would read:

"Without respect for the divinity in life, we are bereft of belief."

runner: "Why would you Legitimize something that leads to so much disease and debauchery? It sends the totally wrong message to young kids who might want to risk experimenting with perversion."

runner, the point is and remains, that if you were genuinely making the argument because you believe the homosexual lifestyle leads to higher rates of disease, then you logically would want to make that lifestyle less prone to disease.

I don't believe this is your reason at all.

Simply because, any doctor will tell you that heterosexual or homosexual sex itself is just as capable of spreading disease.

You can't argue against that point. It's sheer stupidity to even try, since it's well documented and proven. You can only argue that it's the lifestyle that leads to this - the habit of multiple partners and unprotected sex. (Something that isn't unique to homosexuals, but I'll let that slide).

So, clearly, if you really were concerned about disease rates, then you would logically be in favour of same sex marriage, as, if nothing else, it's a way of institutionalising monogamy.

One partner. Less chance of disease spreading.

IF that is your real reason, as opposed to some holier-than-thou-sin-and-god trip.

Yet you're still not in favour of same sex marriage, which is pretty compelling evidence as tp where your real motives lie.

"So, DavidJS, the human rights battle is being won here" says katieO. Yes, I'm cautiously optimistic but it does prove my point that human rights for gays can only come about in countries that at least have some semblence of democracy. Sure, Australia is behind Spain and the Netherlands. But in Spain under Franco, gays rights were unthinkable. The same with the Netherlands when it was occupied by the Nazis.

Totalitarian ideologies, be they religious ones such as Christianity or Islam or secular ones like Stalinism and Nazism can't abide gay rights because gays challenge those ideologies in terms of how men and women are supposed to behave. It is only in countries where adherents of such ideologies have been marginalised that gay rights have a snowball's chance. That's why gays have a better chance of not being killed by the government in Turkey compared with Saudi Arabia (although Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey is a big worry).

Also, every anti-gay regime also restricts the rights of women illustrating the point that anti-gay bigotry is closely linked to sexism

TurnRightThenLeft,

Quite ironic that even the Red Cross realise the much higher risks of taking blood from those practicing homosexuality. You could hardly call them religous.

You also miss the point that I have never hidden the fact that I oppose gay marriage because homosexuality is declared sin and unnatural by God in both new and old testament. The bible again is vindicated by obvious medical facts concerning homosexuality. Face it TRTL sodomy is an extremely unhealthy practice whether you are a believer or not. You only need to be an honest medical person to confirm this fact. No sane parent would want this choice presented to their children as a lifestyle option.