We can do without the incantations of the belief systems currently in place. The whole religious\superstitions, of the blind leading the blind, is only going to do more damage than good.
Weening of the religious pacifier must be done very slowly in order not to shock or horrify the current state of the minds that are heavily infected , that's what I believe. Try having faith in yourselves and turn the power in-wards and not up-wards into the abyss.( We have been dragging that one along to the point of not believing) Religion has had holes blown right through it, it more resembles swiss cheese.

Hypothetical.

One day man will leave this solar-system and seed other planets and I wonder what the indigenous life forms will call us!

I kinder like the name god! lol

I wonder if this scenario has already taken place! The mind can only ponder.
But one thing is for sure, we will all find out in the end.

I would hate to see all the religious people all waiting at the bus-stop and no-one comes, OUCH! that's going to hurt!

All the best

EVO

Well, threads like this show again and again that not only some Christians are very naive about what atheism or agnosticism is all about (very often because of a naive understanding of both the bible and science), but also some atheists and agnostics are very naive about what Christianity is all about (very often also because of a naive understanding of the bible and science, as well as logic, evidence etc.). Neither of these zealots, theists or atheists, can contribute much to any debate that could broaden the perspective of the participants. Such a debate is meaningful only if each participant tries to understand the world view, its presuppositions, of the other, instead of a priori proclaiming it immoral, irrational etc.

George! You may have not noticed, but you haven't provided much yourself. Of course your going to defend your little corner and so you should. Who am I, but a little spec on the face of this earth, with the same worries and concerns of those with higher knowledge's of understanding, so let me put it this way.

Believing in a god will only keep us here, and being afraid of every clap of thunder, well, I think we are past that, don't you think?

What do you think god wants? I see it as a fine case of lost in translation. If he has given us the power and control of our lives and the ability to leave this earth to find our destiny, its fair to say that god sounds a little like Hitler. YOU MUST OBAY ME OR ELSE! or sounds a bit like Peter Costello.

Seriously though, George! Evolution is winning the debate on all levels, and can I give you a hypothetical?

What if, along time ago, man just got it all wrong and wrote this book with his own interpretations? This will mean that primitive man is guiding your destiny, and before you go running off to your alter, its fair to say that this could quite possibly be the biggest form of naivety ever recorded.

Religion is a good grounding tool for many, so it will service its purpose right to the end.

EV

EVO,
>> Evolution is winning the debate on all level<<
I agree completely, not only in biology or cosmology but also in out thinking one cannot ignore evolution. Mathematics, science and e.g. religion have also evolved, and there is no point arguing with somebody about modern science or mathematics if his/her understanding of the subject is stuck somewhere at a medieval level. The same for religion, especially its Christian version.

>>What do you think god wants?<<
If I knew I would be on equal level of intelligence with Him. I can only know what my (i.e. Christian) model tells me, and that is, that He "thought us". i.e. is behind everything you find important - Hitler or Peter Costello or whomever/whatever you care to mention - and that the "technology" He used to make us happen a contemporary non-specialist can best understand reading e.g. Richard Dawkins (leaving out his atheistic non-sequiturs). Since my intelligence is infinitesimally smaller than His, I cannot judge whether He could have used a better "technology" than evolution; a "technology" that would still make us evolve into conscious beings free to acknowledge or deny Him but without the evil and sufferings as an unavoidable by-product.

It interests me how discussions such as this one, which started on issues of the Catholic Church, often gravitate towards the creation/evolution debate. For me, this is the key discussion for theists (and perhaps atheists) in understanding our base philosophical premises with regard to our identity and our relationship with the world around us.

Hence, I would like to ask EVO if you feel the importance of the debate is reflected in your name?

As for the assertion “evolution is winning the debate on all levels”, I beg to differ. Evolution is the majority position amongst scientists; the ruling paradigm. However, evolution’s opponents are standing up quite well. So well that I would suggest that is one reason evolutionists sometimes shy away from debating (I remember an example at the University of Melbourne involving Ian Plimer in 1991). I would go so far as to say that I’ve never seen a creationist lose a formal debate conducted on agreed parameters.

If anyone’s interested in reading one such debate, here’s a link to one conducted by the Sydney Morning Herald website a couple of years ago.

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3466/

http://creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/skeptics_vs_creationists.pdf

EVO,
About man leaving our solar system. I doubt this will ever happen. I personally doubt any astronaut will ever visit another planet in our lifetimes. If anyone wanted to visit Mars, the technology has largely been available for perhaps decades.

The restrictions on interstellar space travel are relentless. Who’s going to volunteer to visit our nearest neighbour 4.3 light years away? The amount of energy required to propel a vehicle one tenth the speed of light would be massive Then after 43 years of “Are we there yet?” you’d need the same amount of energy to stop the thing, then the same to turn it around, and after another 43 years returning another enormous lot of energy to stop. I hope that first volunteer is wearing his seat belt.

Dan

I read one of the debates you referenced. You said that you had
"..never seen a creationist lose a formal debate conducted on agreed parameters."
Perhaps that is because you have never seen a debate "conducted on agreed parameters." The one I read certainly wasn't. The other possibility is that you are just predisposed to believe the creationists.

It is really very simple. Science and Theology are different disciplines. Discussion of creation makes sense within the discipline of theology and evolution within the discipline of science. Creation describes interhuman and human-divine relationships. Evolution postulates a mechanism to explain the observable phenomenon of biological change.

When Darwin announced his theory of evolution the Church reacted to the idea that humans were biologically related to other primates. It offended people to hear that they might have descended from monkeys. The creation-evolution debate has always been about this 'offensive' idea that humans are animals like monkeys, dogs and sheep. We dont need to be offended.

Many years ago I read Teilhard's "Phenomenon of Man" which is a thoroughly evolutionist work by a Jesuit priest who clearly understood the distinction between creation as theology and evolution as science. The book is really an imaginative, semi-mystical account of the evolution of humanity from the primordial soup. It's probably not a soup to your taste.

The point is that it was life-giving to read such a book. Taken at face-value it is about biogenesis but that would be to miss the point entirely. It locates the spirit of the divine in creation as a whole and in the interconnectedness of everything in creation. This is what Genesis is really about. It is an imaginative account of cosmogenesis and biogenesis wherein the organic nature of the whole is organised by the creating, divine spirit who creates it and loves it and humanity is part of that.

You simply wouldnt be human if you werent descended from a monkey!