"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son...bring him unto the elders of his city...And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" so shalt thou put evil away from among you!"

Deuteronomy 21:18:21

"Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

1 Timothy 2:12

Are these the examples of truth and morality Christians would have us follow? How do they keep a straight face? Do they really belive that if they write a piece sounding as academic as possible people are meant to ignore the source?

I'll pass thanks.

The idea that we can use human reason to 'produce' ethical systems is deeply threatening to the Church. The Church's conventional response to 'secular/humanist' ethics, which Peter expounds here quite accurately, is found wanting when one considers all the evil perpetrated by good, sacrament-participating men of the church. Clearly the beneficent effect of participation in the sacraments is not as 'effective' as Sells has argued and anyone can see that.

Socratease makes a very pertinent observation regarding a fundamental change in the nature of the Church that accompanied its adoption as a state religion. From that time the Church lost its prophetic voice. The prophetic movement within Hebrew tradition was a challenge and counterbalance to the exercise of political power with all its temptations.

A church that itself participates in the exercise of political power cannot, virtually by definition, act prophetically. As an Anglican, Sells comes from a religious tradition that can not possibly understand its prophetic calling and hence cannot have a sound ethical foundation. Hence the 'Trust us, we're the Church.' non-argument.

The value in Christianity does not lie in any revealed morality or truth that 'comes down' from God. Whatever it is that brings a person to the realisation that they are doing ".. that which they want not to do." is essential to the spiritual journey that we sometimes call Christianity. For most of us, most of the time, the elements of the eucharist are just bread and grape juice (wine if we're lucky). Sometimes participation in the sacraments brings us back to the journey when that is what is needed. That is when the elements take on their full significance as the Body and Blood of The Christ.

Sorry Sells but I cant accept your argument here. Neither Church nor science can be trusted with such and important matter as this one and the Christian Church has no monopoly on this 'truth'.

Sells, you said

"Church leaders are right when they point to the decay of society and connect that decay with the decline of the practice of Christianity."

What exactly are the signs of this "decaying society"?
Is it government commitment to universal education?
Is it ever-increasing spending on health?
Is it our anti-discrimination legislation?
Is it our freedom to express our opinions in forums like this?
Is it the commitment of government to deal with pollution and save our environment?
Is it our justice system?
Is it the laws which prevent abuse of children?
Was it the abolition of slavery?
Was it the abolition of capital punishment?

If ever there was a "Golden Age" of society then we surely are living in it right now. Sadly, the Church is lagging behind the state on issues of justice. While society is moving forward the Church still treats women as inferior, underpays its workers, supports capital punishment, protects criminals and discriminates against people on the basis of sexual orientation.

The Anglican Church is imploding because significant elements of the Church refuse to give up their prejudices and misguided 'morality'. Far from being a prophetic voice in society with moral authority the Anglican Church is itself discredited and in a state of decay.

If by "decay of society" the Church leaders are referring to the shift away from traditional 'Church' attitudes and culture then they are right but I would say that is a good thing

Waterboy.

I agree that established churches such as the Anglican Church in Britain is a mistake, as does Rowan Williams. That the Anglican church in Australia is not established, it owes nothing to secular powers, does not relieve it of the tradition. I am not a defender of this tradition, indeed I find it weak on many fronts.

I am having difficulty conceiving of a Christian such as yourself having such a low understanding of worship. Do you not think that something crucial happens in that hour on Sunday, or should happen? Why then would we go if not for the hope that we will be changed? My criticism of the mainline Protestant denominations is that we do not really expect it to happen and neither do those who lead worship.

I know that there never has been a golden age and that, by the looks of it, we live in a paradise. However, I think you confuse two things, there is the life of the flesh and the life of the spirit. This need not lead to a dualism in which the flesh in reduced, after all the Word became flesh. We live in a society that sees only the needs of the flesh and is hell bent on infinite improvement in the conditions of the flesh that is beginning to look totalitarian. But we Christians know that we do not live by bread alone and that the spiritual lives of the population is to be regretted. Of course this has always been the case but that does not make it any the less regrettable.
Peter Sellick

Sells

I suppose I come from a tradition that overemphasised the individual aspects of worship and participation in the sacraments. What makes a Church is not the single occasion of a sacrament but the rhythm of worship that spans and thereby transcends time and individuality. We worhsip and act out the sacraments not for some immediate personal benefit but because we believe this is what Christ requested of us. We do it faithfully even when we do not understand it, even when we do not gain from it personally and even when it seems nothing more than bread and wine.

The worshipping church is God's presence in the world, a sign of hope for all. My lack of faith and my flawed beliefs do not diminish the significance of my participation in the sacraments. The flaws of the Churches do not diminish the significance of the sacraments. That is why they stand for all that can be hoped for. If you think that a low view of worship then we must agree to differ

waterboy,

Do you believe that a Church is necessary? That is, absolutely necessary for every Christian? Could a Christrian survive as a Christian from the Bible and writings?

Do you see a differentiation between Christiandom and Christianity?