Keith, enjoyed reading your posts.

You make some very interesting points. Especially your points about risk taking.

Looking back with my sons, I remember my unusual and uncomfortable predicaments when my boys wanted to do something daring that normally they would have done without necessarily telling me. It put me in the weird position of not being able to just be a mum and make all the worrying noises, that it scares/worries me because I had the power of preventing them by not giving permission.

I always felt that by 'giving permission' in writing no less, I somehow agreed that it was OK by me for my child to get injured. I don't know how I would have dealt with my guilt if something dreadful had happened to my beautiful child who would not have been there but for my agreement.

There is this implication of irresponsible parents when a child gets seriously injured or killed. It is a terrible burden to bear that you were responsible for endangering your child, it is so contrary to your instincts as a parent.

My brothers, and myself for that matter, had the fortune of doing daring things knowing full well that you'd better make sure to be careful, because hellish things would come raining down on your neck if you hurt yourself.

Nowadays no kid can even ride a bike to school without parental signed permission.

My boys are now adults, but as underage kids, did such daring things as participating in rodeos riding bulls. Going full pelt on a barely trained brumby after a runaway calf.

I still marvel at my courage to give consent. I am very, very glad that I don't need to do that anymore. Now I can just be horrified after the fact and marvel at their courage whilst telling them that I'll kill them if they hurt themselves.

Yvonne,

Your courage is observable.

Many mums and dads these days don't seem able to exhibit that same trait.

We thought alike. But I am equally sure neither of us would have let our youngsters undertake activities that were truely dangerous or inappropriate to their experience or ability. For example I'd never had let mine near bulls nor horses as they simply hadn't grown up in that environment and would have had no idea about bull or horse behaviour or knowledge of the risks. I doubt you would have let yours do some of the things mine had done for exactly the same reasons.

Yep I agree, permission to do that permission to do this ... all inspired by fear, or that lack of courage, and often a fear not for hurt but for fear the child might fail. I wonder how that affected or affects the next generation?

I'm sure the fear of our youngsters failling is something we've occassionally shared in the past as well, and overcame with the same fortitude.

Keith,

I much agree with your post about risk. I fear for the young ones these days growing up under the umbrella protection from risk that seems the norm these days. Fretful parents egged on by the daily ACA scare campaign cocooning kids and not letting them grow is a big problem.

The other thing is this idea that Self Esteem is king. This everybody gets a prize idea we have these days doesn't prepare kids for adulthood. We have a generation of kids thinking they are so brilliant and talented and gorgeous and flawless, and they discover their limitations all in the one go when they reach adulthood. Much better to learn that stuff along the way, and instead give kids the tools to deal with failure, disappointment and prejudice.

Rather than deceiving children to think they are perfect, it's better to tell them it's ok not to be perfect.

diver dan,

'Free choices available to modern man are in the decline, make the best of it.'
Good one. I like the sentiment, but there's no more choices after you're dead. I suppose it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem

Romany (cireena?), Yvonne,

You have both gone up in my estimation. Such compassion for males from feminists! I suppose that must be a constant battle in your lives to have sons. God has a great sense of irony.

Romany,

'“I don’t want him to be my mate, I want him to be my Dad”,'
I would have rathered the other way around as a youngster. I want my kids NOT to call me dad. I want them to see me as a person.

I do see what you mean though about pushing little boys to be men. I remember my father always telling me to look after my mother when he went OS on business from when I was about 5 years old. Recently at a wedding my brother in law's 5 year old was quiet all day, racked with nerves about having to deliver the best man speach for his dad. He did seem to enjoy being let out to have cigars with the men later in the day though.

Yvonne,

'There is almost this constant need to proof: 'I'm straight''

I think many women over estimate the prevalence and effects of homophobia. If guys don't look at each others knobs at the urinal it's just as much about respect and privacy as it is about homophobia for example. I think women are incapable of 'getting' some male things. As men are of women.

All young people feel pressure to conform, and there will always be jocks, nerds, emos etc. The jocks don't rule the world as a lot of women think. I just think women notice jocks more, and find that culture the most distastefully male. It's their own feelings of 'I hate you but I want you' that winds women up.

Thanks Keith, I'm still glad I don't need to anguish about giving permission anymore though.

Ha ha Usual Suspect:). You're not serious with your gibe about feminists and men are you?

We have grandfathers, fathers, brothers, uncles, lovers and also sons. We are surrounded by men. My father was the single biggest influence on me, expecting the same from me as he did from his sons. It was not until adulthood, that I realized how unusual that was.

With bringing up boys, I am glad that my boys had excellent examples of expression of masculinity in their growing up.

You touching on self esteem and fear of failure is another hobby horse of mine. It's a wonder we still allow our babies to learn to walk. It takes absolutely months before the blighters get that right. Amazing really that we're not protecting them from that constant onslaught on their self esteem ...yet.

What an interesting discussion.

I've written before of the way in which the feminisation of society is taking us down the path of excessive caution in all public endeavours. As Keith said, this is not something that sits well with a male psyche in many cases. Furthermore, the change has been so rapid over the past 15 or so years, that many of those boys would have been inculcated with quite different attitudes when growing up to those they are expected to evince today. In some cases they are expected to behave in ways that are antithetical to their upbringing. The strain sometimes takes its toll.

I suspect the strain is being felt by girls, too, given the spate of headlines about girls behaving badly. Revolutions must always have their victims.