The author says >>” Although Australian sentiment is to see an end to any Australian involvement in the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan,”

Yet tellingly she could provide no evidence for this position. I am highly dubious of these claims, but am unable to find any polling at all pertaining to Australian troops in Afghanistan.

What I did find was reference to a poll which suggest that the majority of Afghans want the Coalition forces to stay and defeat the Taliban. See http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/2007/10/majority-of-afg.html and more particularly http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/Environics_2007_Survey_of_Afghans.pdf

Australia’s Reconstruction Task Force, which is based in Urzugan province, are mostly made up of personnel from the Combat Engineer Regiments which provide combat engineers and tradesmen (carpenters, plumbers, electricians and plant operators) that have undertaken the majority of the RTF’s construction activities. This includes skills training/trade training schools for the local population. See here for a list of projects being undertaken by the team. http://www.viceversaonline.nl/uploaded_files/Australian_Reconstruction_Task_Force.pdf

The author says>>”The NATO led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) rely heavily on airpower because of “shortages of ground-troops”. Bombings are causing heavy civilian casualties as well as resentment in the Afghan population”

This is a reason to increase troop numbers, not pull troops out.

The author says >>”… resistance to the occupation has not abated. … the US puppet regime of Hamid Karzai exerts control over no more than 30 per cent of the country”

Whilst the resistance has not disappeared there has been strong progress in many provinces. The gov’t may not control all of its territory, but when it comes to the population, the afghan gov’t has control of all but 36 out of 376 districts. The violence is localised mostly in the south and west where 70 per cent of total security incidents occurred in 10 per cent (40) of Afghanistan’s districts, home to 6 per cent of the country’s population. http://www.unama-afg.org/docs/_UN-Docs/_repots-SG/2008/08march06-SG-report-SC-situation-in-afghanistan.pdf.

In Afghanistan we are fighting the real war on terror against AlQaeda and the Taliban, These people are directly responsible for the 9/11 attacks and many others. If we intend to fight terrorism at all, Afghanistan is where it is at.

"Although Australian sentiment is to see an end to any Australian involvement in the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan"

Lies, lies, lies. Neither country is under occupation. The troops are there under a UN mandate and with the support of the democratically elected government.

Marlene is right of course.

It is only nutjob mid east destabilisers and liars who want us committed to an unwinnable occupation of Afghanistan.

Their is absolutely no reason for us to be there.

The trials in Cuba of those who perpretrated 9/11 is where the real fight is.

Rudd picked the wrong war to withdraw from ... on a populist basis. The only reason we are in Afghanistan is his desire to suck up to the Yanks.

We have no business in a region traditionally dominated by warlord religious nutjobs. Leave then to it.

Keith,

Your statement that: "Their is absolutely no reason for us to be there" is quite frankly ridiculous.

In case you've forgotten, Afghanistan was Al-Qaida's international headquarters prior to the US-led military action there. Unlike Iraq, it presented a clear danger to the West and there was almost unanimous international recognition of the need to remove that threat by military action.

Withdrawal would simply mean that Al-Qaida and others would once again be able to train, plot and operate from Aghan territory.

"We have no business in a region traditionally dominated by warlord religious nutjobs. Leave then to it."

That would be fine if the religious nutjobs kept to themselves. Unfortunately they don't as proved by 9/11, 7/7, the Madrid bombings etc.

The ignorance of the ranters never ceases to amaze me. The actual killers were mostly Saudis but we did not bomb Saudia Arabia.

Not one Afghan had anything to do with it, the invasion of Afghanistan was planned and approved by July 2001 to get a pipeline from the Caspian Sea and the Taliban had nothing to do with anything.

They were Afghans waging a civil war against other Afghans and that is all.

Beside all that they offered Bin Laden to the US on 14 October 2001 and if the US had said yes we would have left the day after.

Marilyn,

>>”The ignorance of the ranters”

Well excuse me, but coming from an hysterical anti-semite who questions the holocaust, you clearly don’t understand the concept of irony.

The actual killers all spent time training in the many terrorist training camps that Al Qaeda had set up in Afghanistan. Even if the Taliban had any intention of handing over Bin Laden (which is extremely unlikely) there would still have been dozens of terrorist training camps in the country, and the Taliban would still have been ruling the country with an iron fist. Al Qaeda in Iraq has shown that they don’t need Bin Laden to operate successfully, although recent successes in conjunction with Sunni tribes has almost wiped them out.

The world must be a very exciting place for you, with all these top secret conspiracies going on all over the place. I think it’s just hilariously funny that you think that George Bush is a real dummy, yet you can believe at the same time that he and his cabinet are capable of pulling off the most outlandish conspiracies without being caught. The president of the US can’t even get a blow job without it becoming a nation wide incident.

This idea, that the US gov’t and the CIA are pulling off a massive con job on the people of America and the rest of the world, makes a great story, but its bullsh!t. It resonates with those people who believe in fairies, ghosts or UFO’s. Anyone with half a brain should know better. Do you honestly think that if you know about this alleged plot, that the democrats (who HATE Bush) are not privy to it? That somehow they just missed it? Or are they involved as well? That really would be a vast conspiracy, spooky!!

Bin Laden is still in the region, although it is likely he is in Pakistan’s tribal provinces. We can fight Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, or we can fight them in London, Madrid, New York and Bali. The choice is an easy one for me.

Ms Obeid's piece claims that the "Taliban nearly wiped out opium production" yet I seem to recall hearing that the Taliban did not discourage production since they had no other form of foreign exchange (aside from "jihad money", one assumes).

Since ms Obeid is so enamoured of the Taliban perhaps she can explain their treatment of the Hazara?

Tell me Paul

Why did the Soviets invade and leave Afghanistan? Thought they could control the place but failled? Even with their censorship and military might.

Why didn't the yanks just keep bombing the hell out of Afghanistan?

That would have saved many US, European and Aussie lives, would have been cheaper, just as effective (Al qaeida would have moved outta there) and billions wouldn't have been wasted in 'reconstruction', there'd be less drugs emanating from the region and the Taliban would be concentrating their efforts in killing and suppressing their own.

Look at what's happening in the region.
Al Qaeida is in Pakistan and is ... err planning,
Iran is going nuclear,
Israel is telling the world it's going to start a nuclear war.

I say let them go that'll absolutely cleanse all three problem nutjob nations.

The Israeli's are the biggest nutjobs. They think they can launch a nuclear strike against Iran and think Pakistan won't respond to an attack on a fellow Islamic nation. They think the rest of the world will sit idle and watch and they think the average Islamist in the region won't attack Israel (As you continually tell us there are millions of them). They think after a nuclear attack the US public and politicians will still support them.

... Nutjobs...

Didn't they learn their lessons from their rout and failure in Lebanon recently. Naaaaah they are just the world's biggest nutjobs.

PaulL go ahead support and encourage them to launch a nuclear strike ... it's in everyones best interests.

Tell me Keith,

How do you jump from a topic about Afganistan to Israeli Nuclear weapons?

You say >>” Why didn't the yanks just keep bombing the hell out of Afghanistan?”

Why would they? It’s counterproductive. You can’t hold ground from the air. You can’t separate insurgents from the population, which is what you need to do to win a guerrilla war, using bombs. It won’t work. Al Qaeda are currently attempting a comeback, after reorganising and rearming in Pakistans’ tribal regions. American efforts in Iraq have unfortunately used up resources which should have been committed to Afghanistan. Bombing or spraying the opium plantations won’t help us either. It will just push the farmers into the Talibans corner because the poppy is all that is keeping their heads above water. We need to buy the poppy from the farmers ourselves and either use it for medicine, or destroy it.

You say >>” The Israeli's are the biggest nutjobs. They think they can launch a nuclear strike against Iran and think Pakistan won't respond to an attack on a fellow Islamic nation.”

Where did you get these ridiculous ideas from? Are you just making them up or did you read it somewhere? I don’t think you understand the different dynamics between the Muslim countries. Iran is mainly Shia, whereas Pakistanis are mostly Sunnis. There is not much of an alliance between Iran and Pakistan. Israel hasn’t even openly admitted having nuclear weapons, let alone threatened anyone with them.

The real nutjobs are those who refuse to hold the uncivilised Middle East to the same standards they expect of Israel, a country under threat for the last 60 years.

Paul

Your basic assumption is idiotic.

Why would anyone sane want to hold Afghanistan?

Continually bombing any al qaeida set up or camp in Afghanistan would be enough control. Who do you want to pay for the poppy crops?

The US?
Shortly with their deepening recession they won't have enough funds to even support Israel.

Israel? hahahaha

You need to read more of what the corrupt PM of Israel and his Deputy (Aspirant PM after Olmert goes to jail) are saying.
They are using threats of war to defend or boost their respective positions within the Israeli electorate. That pretty well sums up what Israel is all about.

Oh btw Israel isn't the same as it's neighbours. It is nuclear armed and has on more than one occassion threatened their use. Notable was during the war when they were losing to the Egyptins ... remember. The Soviets threatened to intervene and the world was on the edge of a nuclear war. The US told Israel to back off and they meekly towed the US line ... as they will again. Even now they still cannot afford not to do as the Yanks want. Their neighbours don't toady to the US and don't have to have the same standards.

Simple Paul if you are funded by someone you have to accept the standards they apply.

That was one of the lessons from Lebanon. Remember the outrage in the US and the rest off the world?

Start a nuclear war, forget petty and longterm hatreds, everyone will be your enemy ... doh.

Keith

>>” Why would anyone sane want to hold Afghanistan?”

What I said was that you could not hold ground from the air. You cannot help reconstruct the country by bombing it. And if we don’t reconstruct the country and fight the Taliban, they will retake the country by force and we will have to go through this again.

>>”Who do you want to pay …?”

I don’t think you have any idea how LITTLE money the farmers actually get for the raw opium. We are not even talking billions of dollars. And considering the current investment in Afghanistan the cost would be insignificant

>>” The Soviets threatened to intervene and….. The US told Israel to back off …”

Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a sneak attack on a religious holiday, Yom Kippur, 1973. European nations, under threat of an Arab oil embargo had stopped supplying Israel with munitions.

Whilst Israel suffered some initial setbacks, by the time the ceasefire was declared on October 23rd , Israel had reversed all of the Egyptians gains and trapped their entire 3rd army. On the 24th the Russians threatened the US and Israel with entering the war on Egypt’s side. The US countered that they would join Israel and there the matter ended, the Russians not wanting to start WW3. If Israel had threatened the Soviets with nukes if they invaded they would have been well within their rights. There is no evidence that they did however

The US did demand that the Israelis desist from destroying the trapped Egyptian Army. Certainly the Israelis did not strike pre-emptively to begin the war for fear of losing Washingtons support. But then again, Britain, France and Israel were pulled into line by the US over the Suez crisis in 1956.

>>” … one of the lessons from Lebanon. Remember the outrage … ?”

WTF?, governments of the US, UK, Germany, Australia, and Canada, asserted Israel's right to self-defense. The US further responded by authorizing Israel's request for shipment of precision-guided bombs. Bush declared the conflict to be a part of the War on Terror

Baghdad's like a walk in the park compared to Afghanistan! It's mainly gun battles, fierce fire fighting from leaving camp to getting back into camp, it's like the Alamo."
Now the strategy of the insurgents appears to be changing, with fewer fights and more bombs being left by the side of the road - Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) - booby traps detonated by home-made pressure pads or by wire hundreds of metres away
Now 100 British troops have died fighting an insurgency war with no end in sight

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7296516.stm

Reasons for conflict
Some 63% thought it was to help the Afghans fight the Taleban and 71% saw UK operations as part of the international fight against al-Qaeda.
Some 44% of those surveyed believed troops were sent to the country to stop the flow of drugs.
Many people worldwide believe this war is for the Central Asian-Caspian gas and oil.
Personally I believe it was one more big mistake from Bush. It is much more difficult to win in Afghanistan than in Iraq.
We could fight Talibans with the other ways.
Thousands Afghans have visited the graves of Muslim foreigners because they believe the dead Muslim fighters was martyrs and can heal them!
For most Afghans this is a religious war! How can we win them?
Westerns must learn to use their brain, in other case they will lose even when really they have right.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I wonder if all these people who scream & demonstrate for the withdrawal of NATO Forces from anywhere in the world have equally demonstrated against the Teleban & Al Queada when they commit atrocity & kill innocent people. I think not. They only demonsrate against the West.

With that in mind. It leads me to think that these people are in favour of the atrocities commited by these terroists.

If they're not. what workable solutions have they or do they wish to put forth

You all need to watch the movie called "the kite runner" i never understood really why our troops (inc. my own brother at the moment) were in afghanistan, its not just about 9/11 but the injustices being done by the taliban to the afghans themselves. Freedom is something everyone regardless of religion is entitled to and the taliban is making that impossible for the wider community in afghanistan.

Maybe to the ones on here that are so narrow minded and are ready to blame the government in the blink of the eye may just see that the government is doing the right thing in the interest of global peace and freedom.

amberd
"Freedom is something everyone regardless of religion is entitled to" "the ones on here that are so narrow minded"
Really ?
Do you know anything about Saudi Arabia? A stone age theocratic system. NO DEMOCRACY, NO RIGHTS, WOMEN ARE WORST THAN SLAVES! ITS BRUTALITY IS KNOW WORLDWIDE!
Do you know who support this system? Americans and westerns! IF YOU WANT TO SPEAK FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY THEN DO NOT LIMIT YOUR INTERESTS ONLY TO TALEBANS, THEY WAS EXTREMISTS BUT ONLY FOR THEIR COUNTRY.
Saudi Arabia is very strong and play very important role on Muslim Worldwide, especially on Muslims in western countries, most schools, mosque etc created from Saudi money and continue to receive less or more financial support from Saudi Arabia, from the worst theocratic, non democratic system on our planet.
Did you hear ever for Mubarak, the permanent president from Egypt, Did you hear for Morocco regime? Did you hear for the crazy president who change the names of months and gave them the names from his parents and relatives? A whole world from crazy and paranoiac leaders and systems!
About Al Qaeda the problem is much more complex and it needs deep analysis
While Taleban promote their stone age ideas to their people, Saudi Arabians promote them worldwide and they stand on our support.
We filter the flies and drunk the elephant!
The question is not only who first and who second but how.
The war in Afghanistan was lost from the very begin, it's a big, mountainous, divided country, with no central government, fanatic Muslims, hard fighters, no way to press them.
Do you know what happened with Britain and Soviet Union in Afghanistan? Exactly the same thing will happen with westerners now.
If you are for one reason against the Talebans I am against them for many reasons BUT WE CAN NOT WIN THEM WITH A STUPID WAY.
We have lost our brothers and waste our wealth in Afghanistan without any chance to win!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

You are dead right ASymeonakis. Now, how would YOU solve the problem? Here is YOUR chance to put forward a solution. A nice dot point format that is simple to read & understand will be great.

Go for it!

Every country is entitled to its own culture and religion and to rule its country as it choses to. Should we declare ours to be superior?

Under Islam, in many Islamic countries, NOT IN EVERY ISLAMIC COUNTRY,please note, women and children have a sort of future the culture entitles them to. Our intervention in their affairs is not warranted.It is their affair. History has alreqady shown the world really does NOT care a damn what happens to those women and children,to their education,to their freedoms as we know them. This is the verdict of the so-called free world.Accept it,then, and move on. There is an objectivity to this truth.Our reactions are proving subjective and arbitrary. Stop interfering in what is not our concern. Leave them to their destinies.Get a life and move on.

socratease

socratease

>>”Every country is entitled to its own culture and religion and to rule its country as it choses to. Should we declare ours to be superior?”

Yes, absolutely when it is better we should say so. We should declare ours to be superior to the dictatorships and theocracies that abuse and oppress their citizens.

>>”Under Islam, in many Islamic countries … women and children have a sort of future the culture entitles them to. Our intervention in their affairs is not warranted”

Mate this is just apologistic nonsense. We are involved in two wars in muslim countries, neither of them because of their muslim status.

Afghanistan allowed the formation of hundreds of alQaeda terrorist training centres and protected and funded them. Iraq was chasing WMD’s and was not co operating with the inspectors. I won’t argue that Iraq had WMD’s at the time of the invasion, but they certainly once possessed such weapons and I have no doubt that, had saddam survived, he would have sought WMD’s again once he had seen off the UN inspectors.

I really wonder in which Islamic countries do women and children “have a sort of future the culture entitles them to”

In Afghanistan we are fighting an enemy which sheltered those who attacked us, who are seeking to drag the country back to the dark ages. That we should attempt to help the afghans whilst we fight the Taliban and alQaeda is just good strategy.

ASymeonakis,

I agree with your analysis of the Saudis and the Algerians and Morrocans. Its not entirely relevant however,

I disagree entirely with your analysis of the likely success of NATO in Afghanistan. Just because the British and the Soviets failed is not evidence of the impossibility of the task. In any case the Taliban and alQaeda are our enemy and we are better off fighting them in Afghanistan than in the streets of London, New York or Mardrid. Because fighting them somewhere is inevitable.

>>” BUT WE CAN NOT WIN THEM WITH A STUPID WAY.”

How do you think we can win?

Paul.L
I returned few minimutes before from my work I am tired,I do two jobs no time for analysis only few words.
Now with Bush tactics the things are much worst.
From begin
1. block Afghanistan not to export AlQaeda or to enter for training new terrorists
2. Strong, silent support to Internal Taliban's enemies, divide and left them to fight each other.
3. Use intelligent services and smart bombs to eliminate top leaders.
4. No publishing at all of any activity to create or bring fanatic Muslim fighters.
5. Use the smiles and bananas with Arab and Muslim world
6. Do not open any war or conflict with any Muslim country, finish with AlQaeda and Talibans.
7. Sent the extremists to international criminal court.
You understand me what I mean.
Minimum cost for you, clean one after the other, be friendly with maximum possible countries, instead to lose your friends.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide