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The Forum > Article Comments > An age in thrall to enthusiasm > Comments

An age in thrall to enthusiasm : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 13/6/2008

Beware of the person in public life, or the salesmen who boast of their passion or enthusiasm.

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"The latest crop of Christian persecutors display all of the marks of enthusiasm as Edmund Burke noted: “These atheist fathers have a bigotry of their own and they have learned to write against monks with the spirit of a monk.”"

What does this entail, exactly? Asking for evidence? Refusing to believe the unsupported word of the believer? Displaying scepticism about old tired arguments which have been refuted a thousand times before? Insisting that the normal standards of rational debate be applied to religious discussions?

Get real, Peter. Persecution is burning at the stake. Persecution is torture in the dungeons of the Inquisition. Persecution is murdering your daughter because she went out with someone not of your faith. Persecution is sending death threats to someone who leaves your religion. Persecution is car bombs in a crowded market.

All that we atheists want is some rational dialogue.
Posted by Jon J, Monday, 16 June 2008 8:11:03 PM
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Romany.
Thank you for the most provoking posts that I have had on these pages. I had not thought of Thomas Moore as setting the stage for later outcomes. I had him more of a medieval man caught between the times and unable to do anything about the king’s great matter. I will look again.

I am aware of the importance of Bacon in this regard, perhaps that is why I had not thought of Moore. Descartes looked to the improvement of the estate of man with the help of instrumental reason. I guess it is hard to dissect origins when ideas are “in the air”.

Also I had not connected Locke with Hobbes. After all, Locke’s attitude to Hobbes was decisively negative “nothing good can come out of Malmsebury.” I am learning that posture is more important than reality when it comes to philosophers of the time!

Much of the rest of your post is out of my ken. There is obviously much history I need to read before I can comment.

Yours last comment does fall within my expertise. Certainly the English Enlightenment was mostly a clerical affair, indeed a desperate attempt to shore up belief in God in the face of the new mechanical philosophy. Humanism was present in the ghost of Erasmus which had influence with the latitudinarians.
Posted by Sells, Monday, 16 June 2008 9:15:52 PM
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Peter Sells,

More as a "medieval man"? Bite your tongue!

I have always been an advocate of the cross-disciplinary approach to education and have indeed tried to practice what I preach in this connection. But what is important to keep in mind is that once the Church was no longer in sole charge of education (and again, here we go back to the late 16th century, Henry and the growth of University education)all education WAS cross-disciplinary.

Because education remained the province of a (very)small elite, and because so much was circulated in manuscript form, educated persons all operated within a commonality of influences. In this context then, it is imperative that we do not undervalue the influence of the secular upon the theological nor of theology upon humanist philosophy.

Utopia although written by a man who is part of the canon of Catholic Saints, I venture to posit, could be regarded not only as a direct influence upon Enlightenment thought, but as the first Communist - or at the very least Socialist, manifesto. The entire genus of utopian literature which flourished throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries was, unarguably, the food for thought upon which Enlightenment thinkers fed.

It is for this reason that I can never think of Locke without thinking of Hobbes - whose influence amongst the educated elite until the Restoration was huge. While in exile with the Court his position was consolidated so that no-one who laid claim to the title of being "educated" could help but be influenced by him for the next 50 or more years.

"Humanism was present in the ghost of Erasmus which had influence with the latitudinarians." - yes, and More and Erasmus are intertwined. While I made huge claims above for More, reading the section concerning Religion in Utopia will illustrate what precedents the latitudinarians were following.

And regarding your comments regarding the provocative nature of my posts?Its also refreshing for me to be to think about matters which, living in China, I seldom get an opportunity to discuss.
Posted by Romany, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 12:57:05 AM
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Romany and Sells,

The historical background to the rise of Liberalism is seen in the rejection of, absolutism and privilege in the fifteen century, wherein throughout the medieval period church authority was dominant. In principle, Church doctrine did uphold human equality; yet, the individual was presided over by authoritarian religious institutions and ecclesiastically-based restrictions. Private conscience and personal interpretation were frowned-upon. Scientific discovery was repressed.

Until the rise of modern nation-states, we have Crown and Church oligarchies holding power over individuals and societies. Ordinary people had little or no power against Church authorities, monarchs or lords. Individualist enthusiasm was dangerous.

Moreover, except for small business of craft guilds, pre-modern societies were geared towards land ownership, rather than liquid capital. Church and the Landed Aristocracy, enthusiastically, exercised control and were not inclined towards changing this picture.

Commerce accompanying The Protestant Reformation supported the development of a bourgeoisie, with surplus capital. Expanding commerce challenged the Church and aristocracy. I think it is here, we see a breaking free.

Departure allowed the establishment of new [new-style] churches. The time was ripe for the seeding of the “humanism” of Eramus; and, as noted by Francis Bacon, the ability of the natural sciences to raise the levels of human welfare [Wasserman, 1944]:

The shankles of feudal society were gone. A technological society valuing the tenets of liberal thought and economic & personal individualism emerged, for the betterment of humankind.

Sells,

I think I understand what you are saying: What is the purpose/worth of all this technology, freedom and knowledge, in the absence of the “enmeshment” of a purposeful truth? Wherein, you would have a human-divine didactic.

Yet, you probably would not have your physical Bible to read, were it not for the printing press, which is “The” metaphor for free-thought and individualism.

Enthusiast, John Ludlow saw a place for Christianity in modernity. In England; Ludlow was joined by Frederick Maurice and Charles Kingsley with regards to the role of, Christian socialism in welfare reformation. Likewise, Bishop von Ketteler and Franz Hitz in Germany.

Enthusiastically yours,

O.
Posted by Oliver, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 3:17:33 PM
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Sells “I have been a critic of liberal democracy because the much vaunted individual cannot know who he is unless his life is enmeshed with a truthful narrative. The liberal narrative that is simply “you are free” does not cut the mustard.”

And your alternative is what exactly

Subjugation to the church or the state?

Observation and experience suggests neither the organisations of Churches nor the offices of the State have ever pursued a “truthful narrative” with any one, they have always skewed their narration to maintain an authoritarian role in peoples lives.

In the absence of an effective narrator, I would tend to rely on my friends to provide as enmeshed and truthful feedback for me to consider and of course, I am free to choose my friends but we choose each other based on mutual respect, not on assumed or hijacked authority.

As for enthusiasm, I would sooner mix with people who are enthusiastic and excited about what they will aspire to in life than go hang around with those who cry into their beer or absorb themselves in faux spirituality because they lack both purpose and direction but still need an emotional crutch.
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 4:30:54 PM
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"I have been a critic of liberal democracy because the much vaunted individual cannot know who he is unless his life is enmeshed with a truthful narrative. The liberal narrative that is simply “you are free” does not cut the mustard. Surely we see the results of the atomisation of society." - Sells

[1] Please note my intervening post on Liberalism and Christian Socialism.

[2] As elaborated upon above millions of interviduals counterbalance centralised power and authority, so we don't march to the tune of State or Church elite.

Morever, said "atoms" can formulate and re-formulate into different molecules. Being dynamical, groups of individuals are more dynamic, than "led" groupe. A dynamical model is more resistant to a multiple challanges.

[3] I would think an atheist, such as Murray Gell-Mann, would no feel lost and without purpose. I suspect, he would be enthused about undertaking his valuable work and sharing/debating its results.

Likewise, a more popular, though much less accomplished scientist and atheist, the Late Carl Sagan, was highly enthusiastic, in the modern sense of the term. He was loved my millions. Ever seen an episode of, "Cosmos"?

Sagan. Here was a man, loving life, having an excellent marriage and good human relationships,while a significant contributor to popular science education.

Unlike Gell-Mann, Sagan would go no where winning a nobel prize based his minor scholarship. Yet, Sagan received great
"personal" reward and community acknowledge ment than Gell-Man.

[4] Regarding my on research, I am building a scales under the cultural dimension of horizonal altruism. I wont publish for another 6-9 months, yet earlier indications, arising from the data, indicate horizonal altruism sits best with individualist societies not collectivist societies.

[5] The challenge for liberal democracy is to steer a straight course and not be pulled in the direction of theisism, communism or state capitalism. Else, we have enthusists, Bin Laden, Mao or Hilter, respectfully.
Posted by Oliver, Wednesday, 18 June 2008 12:45:24 PM
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